CLAY L. SHAW, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. DYMOND:
Q: You are Mr. Clay L. Shaw, the Defendant in these proceedings?
A: That is correct.
Q: Mr. Shaw, is it a fact that you were arrested on March 1, 1967?
A: Yes, I was.
Q: And where did this arrest take place?
A: In the offices of the District Attorney in this building.
Q: At that time, Mr. Shaw, who was your attorney?
A: Mr. Panzeca and Mr. Wegmann.
Q: Now, by "Mr. Wegmann," which Mr. Wegmann do you mean?
A: Mr. Edward Wegmann.
Q: Which of these two attorneys were you successful in contacting, if either one of them?
A: First Mr. Panzeca.
Q: Did Mr. Panzeca then come to the District Attorney's Office?
A: Yes, he did.
Q: Upon arriving at the District Attorney's Office and seeing you, did he give you any legal advice?
A: Yes, he did.
Q: To what effect?
A: That I was to speak to no one except himself.
Q: Did you follow this advice?
A: I did, completely.
Q: Now, Mr. Shaw, referring to after you were taken by Mr. Ivon from the District Attorney's Office to the Central Lockup of the New Orleans Police Department, did you have an attorney with you at that time?
A: Yes, I did, Mr. Wegmann, Mr. Edward Wegmann.
Q: Edward Wegmann?
A: That is right.
Q: Had Mr. Edward Wegmann given you any legal advice?
A: Yes, he told me the same thing Mr. Panzeca had told me, not to answer questions, not to talk to anyone except to him or to Mr. Panzeca.
Q: Now, Mr. Shaw, at that time did you -- and throughout the time that you were at the Central Lockup -- did you have any desire to remain within the presence of your lawyer?
A: Yes, I wanted my lawyer with me at every stage.
Q: Were you able to have your lawyer with you at every stage?
A: No, I was not.
Q: Why not?
A: Upon being taken into the Bureau of Identification I was told that Mr. Wegmann, he was not to be permitted to accompany me and I would have to go in alone.
Q: (Exhibiting document to witness) Mr. Shaw, I show you an exhibit which has been marked for identification "State 60," and which purports to bear your signature, and I ask you whether you remember signing this card.
A: Yes, I do, I do.
Q: Would you tell me when you signed that card, what, if any, material other than the printed material was on it?
A: Nothing, neither fingerprints nor typewriting.
Q: Would it be correct then to say that you signed this fingerprint card in blank?
A: That is correct, yes.
Q: How did you come to sign this fingerprint card, Mr. Shaw?
A: I was told it was necessary procedure for getting bail.
Q: Now, who told you to sign the card?
A: The patrolman who was taking the fingerprints.
Q: What did he say?
A: He said, "This is a fingerprint card and you must sign it. This is essential for you to get bond."
Q: Now, Mr. Shaw, do you recall having been booked in the Central Lockup?
A: Yes, I do.
Q: (Exhibiting document to witness) I show you a document which has been marked for identification "D-16," and I ask you whether you recognize this and can tell us when that was filled out.
A: It was filled out by the booking clerk who was asking me -- the booking clerk I suppose is the title -- who asked me questions and entered my answers in typewriting on this slip, on the machine.
Q: Were you at any time ever asked by anyone at the Central Lockup whether you had an alias or a name other than Clay Shaw by which you were known?
A: I was certainly not.
Q: Did you ever tell anybody in the Central Lockup that you had an alias or another name?
A: I did not.
Q: (Exhibiting document to witness) Mr. Shaw, I show you a document which has been marked for identification "D-19," and I ask you whether you recognize that document.
A: Yes. This was a copy given to me by the booking clerk.
Q: I now ask you to examine that document and tell me whether there is anything con- cerning an alias on it.
A: No, nothing.
MR. DYMOND: We tender the witness.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ALCOCK:
Q: Now, isn't it a fact that when you made this call to Mr. Panzeca, it was made at the
suggestion of Mr. Sciambra to my right here?
A: Not exactly. I said I decided I wanted an attorney and Mr. Sciambra concurred. He did not suggest it.
Q: I see. In other words, you were the one suggested you wanted an attorney?
A: That is correct.
Q: Did he have a conversation with Mr. Panzeca on the telephone in your presence at that time?
A: Yes, he did.
Q: Would that have occurred during the same call that you made to Mr. Panzeca?
A: That is correct.
Q: Now, up until that time had you been in any way physically abused by any member of the District Attorney's Staff?
A: No, no, certainly not.
Q: Had you been promised any reward or immunity for making any statement to the District Attorney's Staff?
A: No, no.
Q: Who, if anyone, if you can recall, spoke to you prior to the arrival of Mr. Panzeca?
A: Mr. Sciambra and Mr. Ivon interviewed me for some considerable period of time.
Q: Now, during the course of this interview did either one of these gentlemen abuse you?
A: No, they did not.
Q: Did either one of these gentlemen offer you any reward or make you any promises should you make any statement?
A: They did not.
Q: Now, I take it then that any statement you may have given them at that time was given freely and voluntarily?
A: Correct.
Q: When was it that you felt you needed the presence of an attorney?
A: At the time Mr. Sciambra said that he was going to charge me with conspiracy to murder the late President of the United States.
Q: Did you have any conversation with either one of these men before Mr. Panzeca arrived, after the telephone call?
A: No. They left the room after the telephone conversation and I was left alone until Mr. Panzeca arrived.
Q: Then I take it no one attempted to question you after the telephone call?
A: No, no, no.
Q: Now, subsequent to the arrival of Mr. Panzeca, did you have occasion to speak with him?
A: Yes.
Q: And for approximately how long would you say?
A: We communicated largely by writing, as he has specified, but I -- for, I would think, about 20, 25 minutes.
Q: And, to your knowledge, was anyone else in the room?
A: No.
Q: Now, after this conversation with Mr. Panzeca, were you questioned any further by either Mr. Ivon or Mr. Sciambra?
A: No, I was not.
Q: Were you in any way abused by either one of these men?
A: No, I was not.
Q: -- or any member of the District Attorney's Office?
A: No.
Q: Now, on the way over to the Central Lockup do you recall whether or not you were sitting in the back seat as described by Officer Ivon?
A: Yes.
Q: Was that an accurate description of the seating position as you recall it?
A: Yes. I recall it.
Q: Did anyone attempt to question you during that ride?
A: Did not.
Q: Did anyone abuse you during that ride?
A: Did not.
Q: Did anyone offer you any promises or offer you any reward for making any statement during that ride?
A: No.
Q: Now, is it your testimony that at the time the Arrest Register was made, no mention of an alias was mentioned?
A: It was not.
Q: They didn't ask you an alias?
A: No.
Q: Were you answering questions in the office?
A: Beg your pardon?
Q: Were you answering questions as the officer typed on the Arrest Register?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you see the officer refer to any other documents while he was making the Arrest Register?
A: He may well have been, I don't know.
Q: Of your own knowledge you don't know? Is that correct?
A: No.
Q: Would it be a fair statement that most of the information that he typed, if not all, came from you?
A: I don't know whether that is a fair statement or not. He asked me several questions; I gave him the answers. Where the other came from I don't know.
Q: Were you observing what he was doing?
A: I thought he was typing of course.
Q: Did he type at the time you responded to questions?
A: Correct.
Q: Did he ever type when you weren't responding to questions?
A: I think not.
Q: You think not. Do you think it is a fair assumption to say that the only time he typed was when you were responding to questions? Is that correct?
THE COURT: I don't think he can answer the question unless he was looking over his shoulder.
MR. ALCOCK: Your Honor, he just testified he was watching the man.
THE COURT: I know what he testified to, but I can't see how I can look at a person typing and know that he is putting down everything I said.
MR. ALCOCK: I didn't say that. The question was whether or not -- the Defendant has answered that he typed only when he was responding to questions. It seems to me quite obvious then that, as far as the Defendant knows, the only thing he put down was what he told him. I am not saying he can say what was being put down, I am saying wouldn't it be a fair statement that anything he told him was what went into the Arrest Register, because he was typing --
THE COURT: You are speculating. It is impossible for him to answer the question un- less he was looking over his shoulder after giving an answer and seeing what he types.
MR. ALCOCK: All right.
BY MR. ALCOCK:
Q: How far were you away from the man doing the typing?
A: Oh, three or four feet I suppose.
Q: Was there anything between you and him, any object or obstruction?
A: There was a large counter there with papers on the counter.
Q: Papers?
A: Yes, papers on the counter. I could not actually see what was being typed, I couldn't see in his typewriter.
Q: I see. But you could see his fingers moving and hear the clicking of the typewriter? Is that correct?
A: Surely.
Q: (Exhibiting photograph to witness) Now referring you to "State 58," do you see on here where you were standing approximately on that night?
A: I would say in the second or third cubicle here (indicating).
Q: Now, did you have any trouble seeing over the top of the counter?
A: No. That is not a problem for me.
Q: Was there anyone else standing nearby or close to the officer doing the typing at that time?
A: Mr. Wegmann was standing beside me, Mr. Edward Wegmann.
Q: I see. But was there anyone standing next to or close to the man doing the typing?
A: There was another man there; I don't know who he was or what his function was.
Q: Has he testified today, to your knowledge?
A: I don't know.
Q: Was he providing the man doing the typing with any information, to your knowledge?
A: I don't honestly know.
Q: Now, was the man who was standing next to the man doing the typing, would that have been either Mr. Sciambra, Mr. Oser, Mr. Ivon or Mr. Loisel or any member of the District Attorney's Staff that you are familiar with?
A: No, it was no one that I knew.
Q: Was it a uniformed policeman?
A: My recollection is it was.
Q: Now, when you were taken into the B of I room, I take it your testimony is that Mr. Wegmann was not allowed to accompany you? Is that correct?
A: That is correct.
Q: While in the B of I room were you abused in any way physically?
A: No.
Q: Were you offered any reward or made any promises for any statement you might make?
A: I was not.
Q: Did you provide the officer who did the fingerprinting with any information at all?
A: He asked me no questions.
Q: No questions?
A: No, none.
Q: No questions at all?
A: No.
Q: He didn't ask your name?
A: No.
Q: He didn't ask your height?
A: No.
Q: He didn't ask your weight?
A: No.
Q: He didn't ask your place of birth?
A: No.
Q: -- or date of birth?
A: No.
Q: Is it your testimony that Officer Habighorst didn't ask you one question? Is that your testimony?
A: That is correct.
Q: (Exhibiting document to witness) This is your signature, is it not?
A: That is correct.
Q: Did you see Officer Habighorst sign this card?
A: I did not see him do it.
Q: You did not?
A: No.
Q: Is it your testimony now that you did not utter one word the entire time that you were in the B of I?
A: That is not my testimony. I said I did not answer any questions. I was told by Officer Habighorst I was going to be fingerprinted, it was essential, had to be done for me to make bond.
Q: What word did you utter?
A: I said in that case of course I would do it.
Q: And that is all you said the entire time?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you hear Officer Butzman testify earlier?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: Is it your testimony that Officer Habighorst did not ask you any questions at all?
A: That is my testimony.
Q: Then Officer Butzman was incorrect when he said at least that he heard Officer Habighorst ask you the correct spelling of your name?
MR. DYMOND: If the Court please, I object on the ground that it is asking one witness to pass upon the testimony of another witness.
THE COURT: The objection is well taken.
MR. ALCOCK: All right.
BY MR. ALCOCK:
Q: Did Officer Habighorst at any time ask you how to spell your name?
A: To my recollection, no.
Q: Your middle name?
A: No.
Q: Well, now you are fairly certain he didn't ask you any questions? Is that correct?
A: Correct.
Q: That is your testimony?
A: That is my testimony.
Q: Approximately how long were you in the room?
A: Fifteen minutes perhaps.
Q: Do you recall seeing Mr. Ivon in the room at any time?
A: I don't recall seeing him.
Q: Do you recall seeing Mr. Butzman in the room at any time?
A: I did not recognize him today as having been there, but undoubtedly he was. I don't say he wasn't.
Q: Do you recall seeing or speaking to -- or not speaking to, because you said you didn't speak to anybody -- do you recall seeing Officer Habighorst?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you recall seeing Mr. Oser?
A: I don't recall his being there.
Q: Do you recall seeing Mr. Loisel?
A: I don't know Mr. Loisel when I see him.
Q: What did you do these 15 minutes that you were in there?
A: There was some waiting when nothing went on, and then I was asked to wash my hands, which I did. I was then given a card and then I was told that this was a fingerprinting procedure which had to be done in order that I could make bond. Also in this same room I believe I was photographed, but the other end of the room. I was then given the card to sign and the fingerprints were taken.
Q: Were you given the card before you washed your hands or after you washed your hands?
A: After I washed my hands is my recollection.
Q: And you signed it?
A: I signed the card, yes.
Q: And it was blank when you signed it?
A: It was blank.
Q: When did Officer Habighorst sign, as you recall?
A: I do not know.
Q: Did you see any other officer in there at all?
A: There was another uniformed officer as I recall.
Q: Did you see him sign the card?
A: I did not.
Q: Do you know how many cards you signed?
A: To the best of my recollection, only one.
Q: And you made no statements the entire time?
A: I made no statement at all.
MR. ALCOCK: I have no further questions.
MR. DYMOND: That is all.
(Witness excused.)
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