CRIMINAL DISTRICT COURT
PARISH OF ORLEANS
STATE OF LOUISIANA
STATE OF LOUISIANA vs. CLAY L. SHAW
198-059
1426 (30)
SECTION "C"
EXCERPT OF THE TESTIMONY TAKEN IN OPEN COURT
February 27, 1969
B E F O R E: THE HONORABLE EDWARD A. HAGGERTY, JR., JUDGE, SECTION "C"
CLAY L. SHAW the Defendant herein, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. DYMOND:
Q: Mr. Shaw, for the record, please state your full name.
A: Clay L. Shaw.
Q: And you are the Defendant in these proceedings, is that right, Mr. Shaw?
A: Yes, I am the Defendant.
Q: What is your age, Mr. Shaw?
A: I am 55 years old.
Q: Now, what is your educational background, Mr. Shaw? What education have you had?
A: I am a graduate of high school, I finished Warren Easton High School in 1928.
Q: Did you attend college subsequent to that?
A: No, I did not.
Q: After finishing high school, what did you do by way of occupation?
A: I worked for a period for the Western Union Telegraph Company here in New Orleans. Later I was transferred by them to New York where I worked for them for some years.
Q: In what capacity was that, Mr. Shaw?
A: I was a district manager for them, I managed some 30 or 40 branch offices in Mid- Manhattan.
Q: And after that, sir?
A: I was in the public relations and advertising business for several years, and then went into the Army in New York.
Q: And in what year did you go into the Army, sir?
A: 1942.
Q: And until what year did you remain in the Army?
A: Until late 1945.
Q: What was the nature of your discharge from the Army, Mr. Shaw?
A: An honorable discharge.
Q: Now, subsequent to your Army service, what did you then do?
A: I returned to New Orleans where a group of businessmen were planning to found an international trade center. I talked to this group and was offered the job as Managing Director of the International Trade Mart.
Q: Did you accept that job?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: And how long did you remain in that job, Mr. Shaw?
A: Nineteen years.
Q: Until what year, sir?
A: Until October 1, 1965.
Q: And under what conditions did you leave that job, that is, was it voluntarily or otherwise?
A: Oh, completely voluntarily, I resigned because I had other things I wanted to do.
MR. DYMOND: May I have the photographs of Oswald and Ferrie?
(Documents handed to Counsel by the Clerk.)
BY MR. DYMOND:
Q: (Exhibiting photograph to witness) Mr. Shaw, I show you a photograph which has been
introduced in evidence and marked for identification "State 1," purporting to be a photograph of the late Lee Harvey Oswald, and ask you whether you have ever seen this man in person?
A: No, I never have.
Q: Have you ever, to your knowledge, been acquainted with this man? Have you ever talked to him?
A: No, I never have.
Q: Have you ever had any telephone conversations with him?
A: No.
Q: (Exhibiting photograph to witness) I now show you a photograph which has been marked "S-19" and introduced in evidence, purporting to be a photograph of Lee Harvey Oswald, on which has been put a beard, apparently in pencil, and I will ask you whether you recognize that individual from having ever seen him personally?
A: No, I have never seen him.
Q: To your knowledge, have you ever known this man?
A: No, I have not.
Q: (Exhibiting photograph to witness) I now show you, Mr. Shaw, a photograph which has been marked for identification "State 3" and introduced in evidence, purportring to be a photograph of the late David W. Ferrie, and I will ask you whether you have ever known this man?
A: No, I never have.
Q: Have you ever seen this man in person?
A: No.
Q: Have you ever had a telephonic conversation with this man?
A: No, never.
Q: Now, Mr. Shaw, prior to these proceedings and the things preliminary thereto, have you ever known a person by the name of Perry Raymond Russo?
A: No, I have never known Perry Raymond Russo.
Q: Have you ever been to any party with this man, where he was present?
A: No, I never have.
Q: Have you ever had any social or business connection with him?
A: No, never.
Q: Have you ever been acquainted with him?
A: No, I have not.
Q: Now, Mr. Shaw, of course while you were in the Military Service I would assume you wore the regular uniform? Is that correct, sir?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: Since being discharged from the Military Service, have you ever owned a hat?
A: No, I have not.
Q: Have you ever worn a hat?
A: No, I have not.
Q: Do you own a hat at the present time?
A: No, I do not.
Q: Mr. Shaw, have you ever been in the Town of Clinton, Louisiana?
A: I have never been to Clinton, Louisiana.
Q: Do you have any relatives who live there?
A: Yes, I have a first cousin, who is married to a Mr. Yarborough, and they live in Clinton.
Q: You say you personally have never been there?
A: I have never been there.
Q: Have you ever visited with this counsil elsewhere?
A: Oh, yes, I have seen them in Kentwood, which is where our family come from, at funerals and things of this sort, but I have never been to Clinton.
Q: Now, Mr. Shaw, are your mother and father alive at this time?
A: My mother is living, my father is dead.
Q: When did your father die, sir?
A: November 25, I believe, 1966.
Q: Now, Mr. Shaw, where did your mother and father reside while they were both living?
A: They lived when he was alive in Hammond, Louisiana.
Q: And where is your mother living now?
A: She still lives in the same house in Hammond.
Q: Mr. Shaw, have you ever owned a black Cadillac?
A: No, I never have.
Q: Have you evered owned a Cadillac?
A: No, I have never owned a Cadillac.
MR. DYMOND: May I have the photograph of this automobile?
(Photograph handed to Counsel by the Clerk.)
BY MR. DYMOND:
Q: (Exhibiting photograph to witness) Mr. Shaw, I show you a photograph which has been
marked for identification "State 2," and ask you whether you recognize the automobile depicted therein.
A: The car is similar to one that was owned by Mr. Jeff Biddison, who is a friend of mine, but I cannot say with authority that it is or is not.
Q: Have you ever owned an automobile similar in appearance to the automobile depicted in this photograph?
A: No, I never have.
Q: Now, Mr. Shaw, you have testified that that automobile appears to be similar to the one owned by Mr. Biddison. Did you ever borrow from Mr. Biddison the automobile which he had, which was similar in appearance to the one depicted in that photograph?
A: Yes, I have.
Q: When was that, if you recall, sir?
A: During the year 1966.
Q: During the year 1963 did you ever borrow that automobile from Mr. Biddison?
A: No, I did not.
Q: At that time did you own an automobile?
A: I did.
Q: What kind was it, sir?
A: It was a black Thunderbird convertible.
Q: Would you say that it was similar in appearance to the automobile the picture of which I have shown you?
A: Not at all.
Q: Now, Mr. Shaw, referring to the period from July into October of 1963, where were you employed at that time, sir?
A: I was Managing Director of the International Trade Mart here in New Orleans.
Q: Now, as Managing Director what were normally your duties there at the Trade Mart?
A: The managing of the building, the promotion of trade, the handliing of the various activities that the Trade mart undertook. In general, I supervised the operations of the building and the institution.
Q: Now, was there anything unusual about the duties which you had during the period from July 8 until approximately October 8, 1963?
A: Yes, there was. We were planning to build a new International Trade Mart, which has now been built. To do this it wa necessary we issue bonds which a New York syndicate was to buy. A condition of their buying these bonds, however, was that during the period of approximately July 8 to October 8 in 1963, we had to obtain from potential tenants offers to lease totalling an annual income of $1,425,000.00 a year, and this we had to do within a period of 90 days.
Q: Now, had you not succeeded in doing that, what would have been the result?
A: Had we not succeeded in doing that, there would be no Trade Mart now at Canal Street and the River.
Q: Now, what was the nature of the work load as a result of your being obliged to do this within that given period, Mr. Shaw?
A: It was extremely heavy; I have never worked harder in my life than I did those three months, and I have had some hard jobs.
Q: During that time, Mr. Shaw, that is, the period which you have mentioend, did you take any trips out of New Orleans?
A: To the best -- yes, I went to Hammond on one occasion I recall.
Q: What was that occasion?
A: My father was not well, and in late September I went one day to Hammond to visit with him.
Q: Now, on that one day did you have any contact with your office here in New Orleans?
A: Yes, my secretary telephoned me in Hammond at my parents' house on that day concerning a business matter.
Q: Now, on that day did you have occasion to go to any other town than Hammond, with the exception of the towns which would be on the way to Hammond?
A: No, I did not.
Q: Now, how did you get to Hammond upon that occasion, Mr. Shaw?
A: I do not recall exactly. Sometime I went by train, there was an early morning train; sometime I drove; I could not tell you now six years later which way I went to Hammond on that particular day.
Q: Now, other than that trip, did you take any trip out of New Orleans between July 8 and August 8, 1963?
A: To the best of my recollection, no.
Q: During that period, Mr. Shaw -- and with the exception of this one day that you went to Hammond -- were you absent from your job at the Trade Mart on any work day?
A: No, I was not.
Q: And how many days a week were you working, Mr. Shaw?
A: The average work week was Monday through Friday. However, during this extremely busy period there were a number of Saturdays when I worked as well.
Q: Did Mr. Lloyd Cobb have anything to do with this work?
A: Mr. Lloyd Cobb was then the President of International Trade Mart, it was ultimately his responsibility, and he supervised and directed all of our activities during this period.
Q: Now, what was the nature of your contact with Mr. Cobb during this period?
A: Mr. Cobb and I were in very close touch at least once a day either by telephone or by actual personal conference.
Q: Now, Mr. Shaw, do you recall the witness Charles I. Spiesel who testified for the State?
A: Yes, I recall Mr. Spiesel.
Q: To your knowledge, prior to his testifying had you ever seen that man before in your life?
A: No, never.
Q: Have you ever been in attendance at a party where he was, in your life, to your knowledge?
A: No.
Q: Now, I assume, Mr. Shaw, that you heard Mr. Perry Raymond Russo's testimony, did you not, sir?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: Have you ever been at a party or a meeting where Perry Raymond Russo was?
A: I have not.
Q: Have you ever been at a party or a meeting where David Ferrie was? I have shown you his photograph.
A: Yes. I have not.
Q: Have you ever been at a party or a meetiing where David Ferrie was in attendance? I showed you his photograph.
A: I have not.
(Reporter's Note: The above question was twice propounded and twice answered, apparently because of some small courtroom disturbance not noted by the Reporter.)
BY MR. DYMOND:
Q: Have you ever attended any such party or a meeting as was described by Perry Russo
from the witness stand?
A: I have not.
Q: Mr. Shaw, are you familiar with the general location of Louisiana Avenue Parkway in this City?
A: Yes, I know where it is.
Q: Now, more specifically referring to the residence 3330 Louisiana (Avenue) Parkway, have you ever attended a party or a meeting at that address?
A: No, I never have.
Q: Now, Mr. Shaw, do you recall the occasion of President Kennedy's visiting New Orleans before his assassination?
A: Yes, I recall the occasion.
Q: Did you have any official connection with that visit?
A: Yes, I was invited by Congressman Boggs to be a member of the Reception Committee for the President.
Q: Did you serve on that Committee, sir?
A: I did.
Q: Would you describe for the Jury your duties or your activities in connection with that occasion.
A: Well, this was 1962, if I am not mistaken, and to the best of my recollection there were a group of about 60 people who were invited to serve on the Reception Committee. It was decided that a bus would take this group to the airport to meet, to welcome and receive President Kennedy. Of this group some, I would guess, 14 people were to be in the limousines which would follow the Presidential car from the airport to the Nashville Avenue Wharf, the remainder of the Reception Committee would follow in the buss which was in the motorcade.
Q: And where did you ride?
A: I rode in the bus.
Q: Did you go to the airport in that bus?
A: As I recall it, yes.
Q: Did you go later to the Nashville Avenue Wharf in that bus?
A: We did.
Q: Mr. Shaw, do you remember how you were dressed on that occasion?
A: I can't tell you the color of the suit and the color of the tie, but I certainly was dressed in a conservative business suit with a tie on that occasion.
Q: Did you have on tight pants, Mr. Shaw?
A: No, I did not.
Q: Have you ever worn tight pants?
A: No, I have not.
Q: Now, Mr. Shaw, prior to the President having come here on that occasion, had you ever met President Kennedy?
A: Yes, I had met President Kennedy.
Q: What was the occasion of your meeting President Kennedy?
A: To the best of my recollection, this would be in the spring of 1962. Chep Morrison, who had been for a great many years Mayor of New Orleans, was appointed by President Kennedy to be our Ambassador, that is, the Ambassador of the United States to the organization of American States in Washington. Mr. Morrison very kindly invited me to be present in Washington when he was sworn in by President Kennedy. I accepted the invitation, of course, and was present at the time when Mr. Morrison was sworn in as Ambassador by President Kennedy, and on that occasion met the President.
Q: Mr. Shaw, did you ever have any ill feelings toward President Kennedy?
A: Certainly not.
Q: Were you a supporter of President Kennedy?
A: I was.
Q: Now, when you say "supporter," how did you support him?
A: Well, I voted for him.