Q [Mr. ALCOCK]: Now, did you have occasion to speak to Lee in the police station in Dallas?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: How many times did you speak to him?
A: Once.
Q: Just one time?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: And approximately how long did you talk to him?
A: Approximately five, ten minutes. I don't remember that.
Q: Were you alone or with other --
A: I was with my mother -- my mother-in-law.
Q: Marguerite Oswald?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: What did Lee tell you at this time?
A: It was a very casual conversation.
Q: Well, what did he say?
A: He told me not to worry about anything, everything be all right.
Q: Did he say everything would be all right.
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Did he explain that statement?
A: I don't remember right now, sir, what he said.
Q: Can you recall anything else he said?
A: No, I don't remember now.
Q: Did he admit to you that he shot the President of the United States?
A: No, he never did. I never asked him.
Q: Did he ever ask you anything about a lawyer?
THE COURT: Did you hear her answer? You were about to ask a question and she said --
THE WITNESS: I didn't ask him about it.
BY MR. ALCOCK:
Q: All right. And I take it he didn't volunteer? Is that correct?
A: No.
Q: Did he ask you anything about getting him an attorney?
A: No, sir.
Q: After your conversation with Lee at the police station, did you see him again alive?
A: No, sir.
Q: Where did you go after that?
A: I don't remember, sir.
Q: You don't remember where you went?
A: No, I don't remember with whom I stayed or who was around me. I met some people there. I wouldn't remember right now.
Q: Did you go back to Mrs. Paine's home?
A: This evening I was at Ruth Paine's house, but the day I visit Lee in jail --
Q: You went back to Mrs. Paine's?
A: Yes. No. I don't know, sir. Can you scratch this answer? I don't remember whether I went back to Mrs. Paine's.
Q: I realize it is a long time ago. I am not trying to pressure you.
A: I know.
Q: I am asking if you recall going back to Ruth Paine's home or not.
A: I don't think so, sir, because I remember staying some kind of hotel with some strange people around, so I don't know when it was.
Q: Six Flags?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Is that in Dallas, Texas?
A: Yes, sir, it is a part of Dallas.
Q: And who took you there, do you recall?
A: I think it was Secret Service.
Q: Secret Service?
A: Yes.
Q: To your knowledge, was the FBI there?
A: What did you say?
Q: To your knowledge, was the FBI also there?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: While at the Six Flags, were you questioned by the FBI?
A: Yes.
Q: Approximately how long?
A: Oh, very many people came every day, I don't know who, which was of FBI, which was Secret Service, I gave so much testimony each day so many hours.
Q: Were you ever told by the FBI that you would have to co-operate with them in order to remain in America?
MR. DYMOND: Your Honor, we object to that. It is hearsay in the first place.
THE COURT: I will sustain the objection.
MR. ALCOCK: All right.
BY MR. ALCOCK:
Q: Mrs. Porter, did the FBI ask you about Lee's trip to Mexico?
MR. DYMOND: Object again, Your Honor. That is hearsay.
THE COURT: I think she can answer it. Well, rephrase your question. I will allow it.
BY MR. ALCOCK:
Q: Did you personally discuss with the FBI Lee's trip to Mexico?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Did you tell the FBI at that time when you first were aware of the fact that he was going to Mexico?
A: I don't remember what I say to the FBI and when and how.
MR. EDWARD WEGMANN: Mrs. Porter, speak a little louder.
MR. ALCOCK: I couldn't hear her answer.
THE COURT: Repeat the answer.
THE WITNESS: Would you repeat the question, please?
BY MR. ALCOCK:
Q: The question is, do you recall telling the FBI when you first learned of Lee's intention to go to Mexico?
A: When they asked me the fact about if Lee was in Mexico, I told them yes, but when, I told them I don't know.
Q: When did you find out when he first intended to go to Mexico?
A: When I find out? Before I left New Orleans.
Q: Approximately how long before you left New Orleans?
A: Maybe two weeks or a month, I don't know.
Q: Now, Mrs. Porter, I think you testified that you never went to lee's apartment in Oak Cliff? Is that correct?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Did you ever have occasion to attempt to contact him in Oak Cliff?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Were you successful?
A: No.
Q: How did you attempt to contact him?
A: He left a telephone number where he could be reached, and I called by this number and asked for him, but landlady or whoever answered the phone said nobody by this name lived there.
Q: Did you ever have a conversation with Lee as to why he could not be reached at that number?
A: Yes, sir, we had argument over that.
Q: What did he say?
A: I asked him, "Why did you give me a telephone number if you couldn't be reached by it?" And he told me he used another name.
Q: He had used an alias?
A: What?
Q: He had used another name? Is that your testimony?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Do you recall what that name was?
A: No, I don't recall right now, but I was very upset for him hiding his real name.
Q: Could that name have been O. H. Lee?
A: I don't know, sir.
Q: Do you recall when he first rented that apartment?
A: No.
Q: Did he live at Mrs. Paine's home very long when he returned to Dallas from Mexico and New Orleans or wherever he had come from? How long did he live in Mrs. Paine's home?
A: I don't remember, sir.
Q: Do you know whether or not he lived in one apartment, or two apartments in Dallas?
A: I don't know this, sir, I don't know how many apartments he live in.
Q: Did Lee ever tell you much of what he was doing?
A: Yes, he told me.
Q: He didn't tell you he was using the name O. H. Lee? Is that correct?
A: No, he didn't. I don't remember right now what name he told me then he used.
Q: Now, did you ever have an address of the apartment in Dallas?
A: I think so, sir.
Q: Did you ever attempt to go to that apartment?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever attempt to contact Lee at that apartment after you were unsuccessful because of his giving you a false name -- I mean giving the landlady a false name?
A: No. It was only once I called.
Q: Did the FBI ever visit you in Irving, Texas?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: On how many occasions?
A: I don't remember right now how many times it was -- once or twice.
Q: Once or twice?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you ever have occasion on one of these visits by the FBI to take down a license number?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: What did you do with the license number?
A: I wrote it down in a notebook or piece of paper.
Q: Did you give it to Lee?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Do you know whether or not, of your own knowledge, Lee ever contracted this FBI agent, of your own knowledge?
A: He said he did.
Q: Would it be a fair statement, Mrs. Porter, to say that while at Six Flags you were questioned quite often --
A: Yes.
Q: -- by the Secret Service and the FBI?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Do you recall making the statement in your testimony before the Warren Commission, Mrs. Porter, to the effect that -- and this is a quote -- "I think that they, the FBI agents, should not count on my practically becoming their agent if I desire to stay and live in the United States." Do you recall making that statement?
A: Whatever I told the Warren Commission, it was the truth.
Q: Well, do you recall making that statement?
A: I can't remember exact words, but I testified I was under the impression they told me, not in exact words but if I wanted to stay here I should help this country, if I want to be citizen and things like that.
Q: In other words, essentially that statement you would not quarrel with? Is that right? You don't recall exact words but essentially you have no quarrel with that statement, is that right?
A: They told me it would be nice for me to cooperate. They didn't -- I didn't have any threats.
Q: I didn't hear your last --
A: It wasn't made kind of with threats, if I don't do, they will do something about. I don't know.
Q: Did you ever see Lee with a pistol?
A: I don't remember now, sir.
Q: You don't remember seeing him with a pistol?
A: No.
Q: Is it a fact you took a picture of him with a pistol and a rifle?
A: Yes, sir, I recall right now.
Q: When did you first see the pistol?
A: The thing was, sir, when I took the picture I didn't know how to take a picture -- even right now don't know -- I just took the picture, and later on in the picture I saw that.
Q: You didn't see the pistol when you were taking the picture?
A: No. I mean it happened to e there, but I didn't. I can't recall exactly when I saw the pistol.
Q: How many times did you see the rifle in New Orleans?
A: I don't know how many times.
Q: Would it be more than once?
A: Yes.
Q: More than twice?
A: Yes. Three, four, five times.
Q: Three, four, five times?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you ever see Lee with the rifle in his hands?
A: Yes, he have been cleaning his rifle in the house.
Q: How many times did you see him cleaning the rifle?
A: Maybe three times.
Q: Did you ever see any ammunition for the rifle?
A: What you call ammunition?
Q: Bullets for the rifle.
A: Not that I remember.
Q: Do you know what a bullet looks like, Mrs. Porter?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: You don't recall seeing any? Is that correct.
A: No.
Q: Do you recall, Mrs. Porter, the date on which you attempted to contact Lee at the boarding house but were unsuccessful because of his using a false name? Do you remember that date approximately?
A: It was pretty close to the time of the assassination.
Q: Would you say it was a week or two weeks before the assassination?
A: Could have been approximately ten days or one week, I don't remember. I remember --
Q: I am sorry. Excuse me.
A: -- we had an argument over this in the fall -- he supposed to come one week and he didn't come, so I decided he was mad. Then he came on Thursday before this happened.
Q: You had an argument? What do you mean you had an argument?
A: I was upset, I was mad at him because he didn't use his real name.
Q: I see. Were you expecting a baby at that time?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Approximately how long after that call did you actually have your baby?
A: Oh, baby was arrive on the 20th of October.
Q: October 20th?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: You feel this call was prior to the arrival of your baby or --
A: I don't remember, sir.
Q: Did you think it strange that he did not give you -- or did not register under his own name?
A: Yes, it was.
Q: You testified to your knowledge Lee used at least one other alias, and that would by Hidell?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: You don't know of any other aliases he may have used?
A: No, sir.
Q: Now, Mrs. Porter, when you were living in New Orleans in the summer of 1963 and the early fall of 1963, did you speak English?
A: No.
Q: Did you speak any other language but Russian?
A: No, sir.
Q: Could Lee speak Russian?
A: Yes.
Q: Were you expecting a child when you were down here in new Orleans in the summer of '63?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you go very many place here in New Orleans?
A: Not very many.
Q: Did you ever attempt to go to the coffee company where you thought Lee was working?
A: Yes, I did once.
Q: And did you find him there?
A: No.
Q: Do you know whether or not you went to the right coffee company?
A: Maybe I didn't.
Q: Did he tell you what coffee company he was working at?
A: No.
Q: He didn't tell you what coffee company he was working at?
A: No.
Q: Did he give you a telephone number where he could be reached at the coffee company?
A: No.
Q: Do you know when Lee actually lost his job at the coffee company?
A: No, I don't know, sir.
Q: When did he tell you he lost his job at the coffee company?
A: Probably a week after he actually lost maybe, or three days after he lost the job, but I don't recall the date or the month.
Q: Do you recall testifying before the Grand Jury here in New Orleans?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Do you recall telling the Grand Jury that you thought he lost his job sometime in August?
A: If I said so, I remembered then -- then.
Q: I see.
A: I can't recall right now.
Q: And if I told you he lost his job on July 19 --
MR. DYMOND: I object, Your Honor. That is not in evidence.
THE COURT: He has got a right -- under cross-examination, he has a right to attack credibility.
MR. DYMOND: Yes, I understand that, sir, but the form of the question I object to, "If I told you he lost his job in August." That is not in evidence, that he lost his job in August.
MR. ALCOCK: I didn't say August.
THE COURT: July.
MR. ALCOCK: July 19.
MR. DYMOND: It is not in evidence (that) he lost his job on July 19.
THE COURT: I will overrule the objection. It is proper cross-examination.
MR. DYMOND: To which ruling Counsel reserves a bill of exception, making the question, answer, the objection and reason for the objection, and the ruling and the entire records part of the bill.
BY MR. ALCOCK:
Q: Now, Mrs. Porter, if I told you he lost his job on July 19, 1963, would you consider
that a fair estimate as to the date he lost his job?
A: No, I say it wouldn't be.
Q: It would not be?
A: No, I think it was closer to the time we left New Orleans.
Q: Oh, I see. Well, how much closer, Mrs. Porter?
A: For example, if we left in September, if I left September 23, it could be approximately a month before we left.
Q: About a month before you left you think he lost his job?
A: Yes.
Q: That would be approximately the middle -- August 23 then?
A: Sir, it is very hard for me to remember the month, it is too much time passed by. You can find this information probably at the place where he used to work.
Q: That is what I am suggesting. You are suggesting that you felt that he lost his job at most a month before you left New Orleans, is that correct?
A: Yes, sir, because seemed like it was -- he was looking for a while, he was looking for a job, trying to find another job, and it was quite a while, maybe two weeks or so.
Q: Well, would you say then, Mrs. Porter, from July 19 to August 23 that he would leave the house in the morning as if going to work?
A: I can't tell, sir. When he lost his job he pretend for a few days that he is going to work. Then later on he said he hadn't been working but he tried to find another job, and after he admit he didn't have a job, then he was looking through the newspaper in the house and, you know, cut the addresses and then go contact the people by the phone or go see them for an interview.
Q: I see. In other words, he admitted pretending to you that he was still working when he wasn't? Is that correct?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: It is your recollection -- I am sorry -- go ahead.
A: In the beginning.
Q: In the beginning?
A: After he lost his job.
Q: And it is your recollection that sometime around the 23rd of August he officially lost his job? Is that correct?
A: Sir, I cannot testify the exact date right now.
Q: I see. Well, can you say this much, Mrs. Porter -- I am not trying to attack your memory, but can you say this much: Until approximately the 23rd of August he left the house every morning about the same time?
A: Until what time?
Q: At about the same time he left when he went to work?
A: Yes, sir, it is possible.
Q: You say that would be possible?
A: I told you before he could leave the house early in the morning like going to work, and come back at the time he was supposed to come back from work.
Q: I see.
A: Maybe he didn't work at all as far as that.
Q: You didn't know? Is that right?
A: No.
Q: In fact, you never even knew what company he worked for?
A: Maybe he wasn't even working in New Orleans. How was I to know?
Q: I didn't hear that.
A: I never followed him to work so I couldn't testify exactly he had been working. I have to have another proof.
Q: I see. Did he tell you much about what he was doing here in New Orleans?
A: No, sir.
Q: As a matter of fact, he rarely told you about what he was doing at any time, isn't that correct?
A: What?
Q: As a matter of fact, he rarely told you at any time what he was doing. Isn't that correct?
A: That is correct.
Q: Did Lee read much?
A: Yes.
Q: Did he talk to you very much?
A: No.
Q: Did he teach you English?
A: No.
Q: Did you ask him to teach you English?
A: No.
Q: Did you want to learn English when you were down here?
A: Yes, I wanted, but I was busy with the baby and housework. I wished to but I didn't have time very much.
Q: Now, I think you have testified that you still do not know how to drive a car? Is that correct?
A: That is correct, sir.
Q: And, to your knowledge, Lee never drove a car here in New Orleans? Is that also correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you ever see Mrs. Paine attempt to teach him how to drive a car?
A: Yes, she showed him once from the house, her home, a little bit.
Q: Would that be after you returned to New Orleans or before you came down to New Orleans?
A: I think after New Orleans.
Q: Did you know what job he held prior to coming down to New Orleans?
A: I didn't hear you, sir.
Q: The job, did you know what job he held just before coming to New Orleans?
A: No.
Q: You didn't know that job either?
A: No.
Q: Do you know the type of work he was doing?
A: No.
Q: Did you have a telephone number of his place of employment?
A: No, sir.
Q: You didn't know the place of employment?
A: No, sir.
Q: Did you know any of his friends from work?
A: No, sir.
Q: Did you know of any friends he may have had down here?
A: No, I didn't know. Seemed like he didn't have very many friends. He didn't make any telephone calls and didn't go anywhere.
Q: Did you have a telephone?
A: No. I mean usually, he had to make a telephone call about a job or something, he would go to the pay phone, so --
Q: Did you know he was handing out these FAIR PLAY FOR CUBA pamphlets down here?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you know how many times he handed them out?
A: I don't know.
Q: You don't know?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever see him handing any out?
A: No.
Q: Do you know whether or not he belonged to any FAIR PLAY FOR CUBA committee down here?
A: That is what he said to me.
Q: I didn't hear you.
A: That is what he told me, he belongs to it.
Q: Did he ever tell you who the members of the committee were?
A: No.
Q: Did he ever say how many there were?
A: No, sir.
Q: Did he ever say where the committee met?
A: No. Seemed to me that he just made up the story, really it wasn't any committee or organization or anything at all.
Q: Did you sign anything for him down here?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: What did you sign?
A: Some kind of paper about something, but I don't remember what it was.
Q: Would you recall --
A: The name Hidell.
Q: Hidell?
A: Yes.
Q: You signed the name, Hidell?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: And what was your purpose of doing that?
A: He asked me to do it and I refused, and then he forced me to do it.
Q: What do you mean, forced you?
A: He threatened me if I wouldn't do it he use, you know -- how shall I say?
Q: Physical threats?
A: Physical threats, yes, sir.
Q: Do you recall going to Mobile with Lee when he made the speech?
A: Where?
Q: Do you recall going with Lee to Mobile when he made the speech?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Did you hear the speech?
A: No.
Q: Did you have occasion to have a conversation with Jesuit priest at that time who also spoke Russian?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: And was this done while the speech was going on, were you having a conversation while Lee was making the speech?
A: I don't remember right now, sir, whether it was afterwards or before.
Q: Do you recall telling the priest that you didn't know who Lee's friends (were) or what he did down in New Orleans at all?
A: I don't remember right now, sir.
Q: Do you know as a matter of your own knowledge what Lee was doing when he was pretending to be working?
A: No. I couldn't know, sir, that.
Q: I take it then he wasn't home?
A: What did you say?
Q: I take it he wasn't home if he was pretending to be working, is that correct?
A: I guess so.
Q: Now, approximately what time did Lee return home from work?
A: Five-thirty.
Q: Five-thirty?
A: Five o'clock or five-thirty.
Q: Five o'clock or five-thirty. Was it light or dark then?
A: It was quite light.
Q: What?
A: Light.
Q: Light. Did he come home every night at the same time?
A: Yes.
Q: Every night?
A: Well, when he was working.
Q: What about when he was pretending to work?
A: O.K., sir. I can recall, for example, he told me -- when he told me he lose his job, and he told me it wasn't very long, so right now I can't say exact days and everything when he lost and when he --
Q: I understand when he was pretending --
A: But it haven't been for very many days, because he just can't pretend any longer so he told me.
Q: You were aware of the fact that he was arrested for the distribution of this FAIR PLAY FOR CUBA literature here in New Orleans?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Did he come home that night?
A: No, he didn't.
Q: Did you see him the next morning?
A: Yes, he came next morning.
Q: Did he tell you about it the next morning?
A: Yes.
Q: When was the first time that you saw these -- if you did see them -- these FAIR PLAY FOR CUBA committee leaflets around the apartment?
A: I don't recall the time, but he brought them home.
Q: He brought them home?
A: One day. I don't remember when.
Q: Now, did Lee get much mail at home?
A: No, he didn't, no.
Q: Did he have a post office box?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Did you ever go to his post office box?
A: No.
Q: Did you know where it was located?
A: No.
Q: Did you have a key to it?
A: No.
Q: I take it then you don't know what Lee received at the post office box? Is that correct?
A: No, sir.
Q: Did Lee give you instructions never to go into his personal things?
A: What did you say?
Q: Did Lee give you instructions never to go into his personal things?
A: It was since we were married, he was always this way. I was brought up in the same way, I don't like to touch somebody's wallet or go look for some personal things, package and things like that.
Q: And may I take it you never did this? Is that correct?
A: Anyhow I tried not to.
Q: What did you say? You were afraid to?
A: No, I say I try not to.
Q: You try not to. Do you know how long he had his post office box?
A: No.
Q: Do you know when he first got it?
A: No.
Q: Do you know the number of the post office box?
A: No, sir.
Q: Did you know whether or not Lee collected Unemployment Compensation down here in New Orleans in the summer of 1963?
A: I think he did.
Q: You are not sure of that?
A: No, I am not sure right now.
Q: Did Lee pay his rent by cash or by check?
A: I don't know, sir, how he paid his rent.
Q: Did you know of any checking account?
A: No.
Q: I think you told Mr. Dymond you never received any money from any account he might have had? Is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you ever see him write a check?
A: Once we went to the grocery store and he had to, I think, cash his check.
Q: Cashier's check?
A: I don't know what kind of check it was because I couldn't read English.
Q: I am sorry. You mean cash a check?
A: Yes, sir. I mean for his employer.
Q: His employer. That would be his pay check? Is that correct?
A: I guess so, but I don't know what kind of check it was.
Q: Did he ever tell you he was going down to the Unemployment Office?
A: I don't recall right now.
Q: Did he ever tell you the name of anybody he knew down here?
A: No. I was quite upset we didn't have any friends here at all. I was quite lost.
Q: Well, did he tell you the name of anybody he worked with?
A: No.
Q: Did you tell you the places that he went to in an attempt to get a job after he lost his job?
A: No, sir. He was -- Lee was the kind of person, he never had very many friends and he wasn't very friendly.
Q: He wasn't a friendly type person?
A: No. He liked to be alone and left alone.
Q: He liked to be left alone?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: You said he read a lot. Is that correct?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Did you ever go to the library with him here in New Orleans?
A: Yes.
Q: You did go to the library with him here in New Orleans?
A: Yes.
Q: How many times?
A: Maybe twice.
Q: Twice?
A: Maybe three times.
Q: Did you take the baby with you?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you recall where that library was located?
A: It was very close to our home, I think on Magazine Street.
Q: Magazine Street?
A: Seemed to me it was on Magazine Street.
Q: Do you recall ever going to the main library with him?
A: I don't remember, sir.
Q: I think you testified that he had two dress shirts, is that correct, to the best of your knowledge?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Did he have any T-shirts?
A: Maybe a half a dozen.
Q: Half a dozen?
A: Or four.
Q: Four. Did he have any other sport shirt?
A: What you call "sport shirts"?
Q: I am sorry. I didn't hear you.
A: What you call "sport shirts"?
Q: Not a dress shirt or a white shirt.
A: Not a -- would you wear over slacks?
Q: Right, right.
A: I think so.
Q: You don't recall whether he had any or not?
A: I don't remember, sir, what kind of clothes he had, you know, go inside or outside.
Q: Where would Lee spend most of his time when he was at the apartment on Magazine Street?
A: At home.
Q: I say, where would he spend most of his time in the apartment?
A: Where in the apartment he spend time?
Q: Correct.
A: It wasn't a very big apartment. Play cards in the kitchen or read in the bedroom or the den.
Q: Was there a porch, did you have a porch?
A: Yes, we had a porch.
Q: Did he spend much time on the porch to your knowledge?
A: He liked to sit with the rifle at night on the porch.
Q: He liked to sit with the rifle at night?
A: Yes.
Q: What was he doing with the rifle when he was sitting with it?
A: I don't know.
Q: You saw him holding it?
A: It was dark over there, I could hardly see him, and he told me not to bother him.
Q: (Exhibiting rifle to witness) Mrs. Porter, do you remember whether or not the rifle that you saw or the rifle that Lee owned had a sign like this?
A: I don't remember.
Q: You don't remember that? Do you remember what color it was?
A: No.
Q: Do you remember how long it was?
A: No, I am sorry but I don't remember; to me all the rifles look quite the same as long as it is a rifle. Some may be longer.
Q: Did you consider Lee a Communist?
A: No, sir.
Q: Mrs. Porter, did any FBI agents come to your apartment here in New Orleans when Lee was here in New Orleans?
A: I don't remember, sir.
Q: Did anyone come to the apartment that you can recall?
A: No.
Q: No one at all?
A: Except the people I told you about, the Murrets and this lady, that is all. Not any men visit us.
Q: Did Mrs. Kloepfer come to the apartment? Do you remember her?
A: Who is she?
Q: Ruth Kloepfer, K-l-o-e-p-h-e-r [sic].
A: Who is she, sir?
Q: I am asking you. Do you recall her coming to the apartment with her two grown daughters?
A: Oh, I don't remember her name.
Q: That is what I mean.
A: Some lady --
Q: That would be someone who came to the apartment, is that right?
A: Yes.
Q: Did Lee ever tell you he shot a General Walker?
A: Yes, he told me.
Q: Do you remember when he told you that?
A: After he came home late at night.
Q: Late at night?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you remember when that was?
A: I don't remember date.
Q: Did he have his rifle with him?
A: I don't remember.
Q: You don't remember?
A: Oh, no, he didn't have the rifle with him.
MR. DYMOND: Just a moment. We object to this on the ground it is completely irrelevant to this case, a matter concerning General Walker.
MR. ALCOCK: Your Honor, I am testing this witness's credibility.
THE WITNESS: You are testing what?
(Laughter in the courtroom.)
THE COURT: Just a minute. I think it is a proper subject of cross-examination. Overrule the objection.
MR. DYMOND: To which ruling we reserve a bill, making the line of questioning, the answers, given by the witness, the objection, the reasons for it, and the Court's ruling and the entire record and testimony up until now, parts of the bill.
THE COURT: Let me interrupt you a second. Mrs. Porter, if you do not understand the question or any word that Mr. Alcock may use in the question, before you answer, you may say, would you explain.
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Maybe he will put it in a different way and make it clearer to you.
THE WITNESS: O.K.
BY MR. ALCOCK:
Q: Now, did you see the rifle when he returned on the night you say he said he had shot
at General Walker?
A: No, sir, I didn't.
Q: Did you see the rifle after that?
A: Seemed like he went to pick it up later, the following day or the following something.
Q: Do you know where he picked it up from?
A: I don't know.
Q: Did you report this incident to anybody before the assassination?
A: No.
Q: Did you see the rifle after this night that you said he came back?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you know whether or not you and Mrs. Paine brought the rifle to New Orleans?
A: What did you say?
Q: Do you know whether or not you and Mrs. Paine brought the rifle to New Orleans?
A: Seemed like we did.
Q: I didn't hear your reply.
A: I mean, I don't know, sir.
Q: You don't know?
A: No.
Q: Did Lee pack the belongings that you brought here to New Orleans?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: You didn't come down here with Lee, did you?
A: No.
Q: Did Lee pack the belongings that you brought here to New Orleans?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: You didn't come down here with Lee, did you?
A: No.
Q: Approximately how long was it after Lee left Dallas that you came down to New Orleans?
A: After Lee left Dallas? You mean the first time? About a week, I guess.
Q: About a week?
A: I don't remember, sir. I am sorry.
Q: After the incident that you have related about Lee telling you he shot at General Walker, did you see him burning a notebook a couple of days later?
A: I don't remember right now, sir.
Q: You don't remember that now?
A: No. If I said in Warren Commission testimony, he did, because I told everything the truth then, but I can't remember now.
Q: Do you know whether or not Lee ever kept a notebook locked in his room anywhere?
A: He kept all his things in the closet in Dallas or in New Orleans.
Q: Was it locked?
A: No. The door was shut.
Q: The door was shut?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you open the door to clean?
A: Cleaned himself.
Q: He cleaned it?
A: Once in a while I cleaned the floor.
Q: I take it then you didn't know what was in the closet? Right?
A: I never checked on it.
Q: Do you know whether or not, of your own knowledge, Mrs. Porter, Lee Oswald gave any information to the FBI?
A: I don't know about it.
Q: To your knowledge, did you ever see him talking with the FBI or an FBI agent?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: I didn't hear your answer.
A: Yes.
Q: When was this?
A: When we first came and lived in Fort Worth, FBI came to see us.
Q: Other than that occasion, did you see him, to your knowledge, talking to an FBI agent?
A: I don't remember now.
Q: When the agent came to you, that is, the FBI agent came to you in Dallas, did you give that agent the address where Lee was staying?
A: Ruth Paine gave it.
Q: In your presence?
A: Yes.
Q: Were you present then?
A: Yes.
Q: Can you recall, Mrs. Porter, Lee receiving any mail at the 4907 address on Magazine Street?
A: We had some mail.
Q: You had some mail?
A: Yes.
A: Yes, sir.
Q: I didn't hear your answer.
A: Yes.
Q: When was this?
A: When we first came and lived in Fort Worth, FBI came to see us.
Q: Other than that occasion, did you see him, to your knowledge, talking to an FBI agent?
A: I don't remember now.
Q: When the agent came to you, that is, the FBI agent came to you in Dallas, did you give that agent the address where Lee was staying?
A: Ruth Paine gave it.
Q: In your presence?
A: Yes.
Q: Were you present then?
A: Yes.
Q: Can you recall, Mrs. Porter, Lee receiving any mail at the 4907 address on Magazine Street?
A: We had some mail.
Q: You had some mail?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you recall who the mail was from?
A: I received letter from my girl friend.
Q: Do you recall whether Lee received any mail?
A: I think he did, but I don't know where they come from, who they were from.
Q: You don't know who they were from?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever read it.
A: No, I didn't read it. I read English but -- I could read English but I didn't under- stand it.
Q: So I take it then that you did not read any mail he may have received on Magazine Street? Is that correct?
A: That is correct, sir.
Q: Do you know whether or not he received these leaflets by mail?
A: I think so, sir.
Q: What makes you think so?
A: I don't know.
Q: Did you see them come in the mail?
A: They were in a package. No, I didn't see them. I couldn't really testify to this, you know, because I don't remember how it was.
Q: Did Lee tell you much about his activities in connection with the distribution of the literature of this FAIR PLAY FOR CUBA pamphlet?
A: Oh, he was quite excited about. He always like to show how brace he was and how smart he was and things like that.
Q: I see.
A: I don't know how much truth there was in it.
Q: Did you actually see some pamphlets? Is that correct?
A: I have seen them around the house, yes.
Q: Do you remember what color they were?
A: I think it was yellow, could have been.
Q: (Exhibiting document to witness) Now, Mrs. Porter, I am going to show you what has been marked for identification "S-5," and ask you if you can recognize this particular pamphlet or if you have seen a similar pamphlet at any time.
A: Yes, sir, and I remember --
MR. DYMOND: We can't hear her.
A: (Continuing) I recognize this paper.
BY MR. ALCOCK:
Q: Do you recognize it?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: How do you recognize it?
A: I remember the color and I remember the HANDS OFF CUBA."
Q: Do you remember anything else on the pamphlets?
A: (Indicating) And I remember this stamped thing with the name and address. Lee did this, I remember he was stamping them, whatever it was.
Q: Do you recall Lee actually stamping on these this "A. J. Hidell, Post Office Box 300016, New Orleans, Louisiana"?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Is that the same name that you signed for Lee down here in New Orleans?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Mrs. Porter, do you recall, while you were here in New Orleans did Lee tell you what his duties were, his job, what he did?
A: No, sir.
Q: Did you know how much he was making a week or a month?
A: No, did not. I knew at the time it was $55.00 or something, $70.00, $60.00.
Q: And he never told you what his duties were or what he did at work?
A: No.
Q: Did he ever discuss with you what he did at work?
A: Very little.
Q: I take it that when you had conversations it would necessarily have to be in Russian, would that be correct, here in New Orleans?
A: All conversations were in Russian at home.
Q: Do you recall any more, Mrs. Porter, about the men that came to the door when you were on Magazine Street?
MR. DYMOND: Object, Your Honor. I don't think there is any testimony that men came to the door. There was one man she testified to.
THE COURT: Would you rephrase your question.
BY MR. ALCOCK:
Q: Do you recall anything about when a man or men came to the door on Magazine Street?
A: It was -- seemed like it was weekend, Saturday or Sunday.
Q: Did you see the man or men?
A: No, I didn't see man.
Q: Did you hear the man or men?
A: I heard the -- how you call it? -- the doorbell or whatever it was, and it was very early in the morning, so Lee went out there, and after a few minutes came back, said, "Somebody probably checking on me," or something like this, that is all. And he wasn't very long at all.
Q: He said somebody checking on him?
A: I asked him who it was. (Said) probably FBI, maybe it is a reporter, and that is all. Said he didn't know who the man was.
Q: Well, to your knowledge, would the FBI usually check on him?
A: Yes. Anyhow this was my impression, what Lee told me.
Q: (Exhibiting photograph to witness) Mrs. Porter, I am going to show you a picture which "State-6," and I ask you if you recognize anyone in the picture.
A: (Indicating) That is my husband, late, right here.
Q: Do you recognize anyone else?
A: Nobody else. I don't know anybody else in that picture.
Q: (Exhibiting document to witness) Now, I am going to show you what I have marked for purposes of identification as "State-9," and ask you if you recognize this particular pamphlet.
A: No, I don't recognize it, never seen it before.
Q: (Exhibiting document to witness) Now, I show you what I have marked for purposes of identification as "State-4," and I ask you if you recognize it.
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Where have you seen that one or a similar one at any time?
A: I don't connect the whole thing, but this thing is familiar to me (indicating), the stamp.
Q: Where have you seen that before?
A: Because Lee had one of these. The stamp was on the yellow paper.
Q: What kind of stamp was it that he used, do you recall?
A: No.
Q: Do you know where he may have gotten the stamp from?
A: I think he made it himself, a little, you know, letter -- I think he made it himself, these little letters you put together. I don't know, it is a little kit or whatever you can buy at the dime-store or wherever you are supposed to buy them.
Q: Is that the first and only time you ever saw him using a stamp like that?
A: Yes, I have seen him doing this in New Orleans.
Q: Did you see him do it in Dallas before you came to New Orleans?
A: No.
Q: Did you see him do it in Dallas after you left New Orleans?
A: No.
Q: Do you know what ever became of the kit? Have you ever seen the kit since --
A: No.
Q: -- since you saw him using it?
A: No. I don't know what happened with it.
Q: Do you a man by the name of Carlos Bringuier?
A: No.
Q: Carols Bringuier?
A: No.
Q: Now, when you left New Orleans to go back to Dallas, did Lee remain here in New Orleans, to your knowledge?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you recall on what day of the week you left New Orleans to go back to Irving, Texas with Mrs. Paine?
A: No, sir, I don't recall.
Q: Do you recall what time or part of the day that you left New Orleans?
A: In the morning.
Q: In the morning?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you recall how much of Lee's belongings that you left behind when you left New Orleans?
A: I don't remember, sir.
Q: Did you have occasion at any time during that morning to look into Lee's closet?
A: No.
Q: Did he give you any money on that occasion?
A: I don't remember, sir.
Q: Do you know whether he had any money when you left?
A: I guess he had; he saved some money.
Q: He saved some money?
A: Yes, from his pay check. Whatever, it wouldn't be a very big amount, I assume.
Q: I see. Did he say why he was going to Mexico?
A: Yes.
Q: Why?
A: He want to go to Cuba, and he tried through the Mexican Embassy, you know, somehow to go to Cuba.
Q: Were you supposed to go to Cuba with him?
A: He said he will let me know what to do, you know, what steps to take.
Q: Do you know whether or not, Mrs. Porter, when Lee was down here in New Orleans he attempted to or did contact an attorney about his discharge from the Service?
A: I don't remember this right now, sir.
Q: Do you recall his talking about his discharge at all, from the Service?
A: He wrote letter to somebody about that, but I don't recall whom.
Q: You don't know of your own knowledge whether he went to a local attorney here in an attempt to get some work done on his discharge?
A: I don't know about that, sir.
Q: Do you know whether or not during the day he may have gone to some surrounding town in an attempt to look for a job?
A: No.
Q: I think you said he did not drive. Is that correct?
A: No.
Q: Have you ever heard of the name, or did he ever mention the name of Dean Andrews to you?
A: No.
Q: When Lee came back from looking for a job as he told you, did he ever tell you what he had done that day in an attempt to get a job?
A: He said -- I just asked him if he get it or not, and he said no. Didn't like to be bothered with the questions.
Q: He didn't want to be bothered with the questions?
A: Yes, you know, about the job, who he see or what kind of place it was.
Q: Well, did he ever talk to you about what he was doing down here when he was away from your house?
A: Yes. He go to the library, you know, to pick up some books, or go look for the job. He wasn't gone very long.
MR. DYMOND: If the Court please, we object on the ground of this being repetitious. We have been over this material before, and we ask that the Court exercise its discretion.
THE COURT: I would appreciate it if you would explore a new avenue.
MR. ALCOCK: Very well, Your Honor.
BY MR. ALCOCK:
Q: Do you recall testifying before the Warren Commission? Is that correct, Mrs. Porter?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Did you tell the Warren Commission that you had lied to the FBI about Oswald's trip to Mexico?
A: Yes, I told -- before I testified for the Warren Commission I had so many questions from FBI and everybody, so I actually didn't, I just didn't tell them, you know, anything at all.
Q: Oh, I see.
A: When they ask me question if he have been in Mexico, I didn't tell no. I didn't lie.
Q: How many times did you appear before the Warren Commission?
A: Three times.
Q: Three or four times?
A: Three times.
Q: Three times. On your first appearance, did the Warren Commission ask you whether or not you knew Lee was going to Mexico when you left New Orleans?
A: I don't remember.
MR. DYMOND: Your Honor --
THE WITNESS: I don't remember first time or second time.
MR. DYMOND: Object first of all on the ground that it is hearsay, and, secondly, repetitious.
THE COURT: Well, I will permit the question under the guise of cross-examination attacking the credibility of the witness. I will permit it. I will overrule the objection. Please read the question back.
(Whereupon, the pending question was read back by the reporter.)
A: Sir, I couldn't remember what questions asked me first time or second time or third time.
Q: Well, do you recall admitting to them on one of your early appearance you had lied when you said you did not?
A: I don't remember that, sir.
Q: You don't remember that?
A: I don't remember that now. Can I make a statement? I just told them everything I know, and everything was true so I didn't have anything else to lie about, hide or lie about.
Q: Do you recall telling Mr. Rankin of the Warren Commission that most of these questions -- this is quote allegedly from you -- Mr. Rankin asked you this: "When you were asked before about the trip to Mexico --
MR. DYMOND: Your Honor, we object on the ground this is hearsay, it is something that someone else said or asked outside of the Defendant's presence.
MR. ALCOCK: I have a right to impeach the witness. She didn't deny it.
THE COURT: I think it is the same situation we came up with in Perry Raymond Russo, impeaching a prior contradictory statement. Isn't that the theory on which you are proceeding?
MR. ALCOCK: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: I will overrule your objection.
MR. DYMOND: If the Court please, we are going to ask at this time that her entire testimony before the Warren Commission be introduced in evidence.
THE COURT: No, sir. I will rule on each question myself. I don't know what the Warren Commission ruled on, what they let in. Whether they let inadmissible evidence in, I don't know. I will rule myself on each question.
MR. DYMOND: If the Court please, I think the State has opened the door here by giving specific quotes or alleged quotes from the Warren Commission report, and I think the best evidence of what happened before the Commission is certainly the transcript of what happened.
THE COURT: Well, if I recall correctly, Mr. Dymond, you used Perry Raymond Russo's testimony before the preliminary hearing and quoted direct quotes, and I wouldn't let you or the State introduce the preliminary hearing testimony, and that is the same situation. I therefore overrule your objection.
MR. DYMOND: To which ruling Counsel objects and reserves a bill of exception, making the State's question, the Defense objection and the reasons therefor, the ruling of the Court, the entire testimony and record up until this time, parts of the bill.
THE COURT: You may proceed, Mr. Alcock.
BY MR. ALCOCK:
Q: Now, Mrs. Porter, do you recall this question being asked of you by the Warren
Commission; the question reads as follows:
"Q: When you were asked before about the trip to Mexico, you did not say that you knew anything about it. Do you want to explain to the Commission how that happened?"
And your response was as follows: "Most of these questions were put to me by the FBI. I did not like them too much. I didn't want to be too sincere with them. Though I was quite sincere and answered most of their questions, they questioned me a great deal and I was very tired of them and I though that, well, whether I knew or didn't know about it didn't change matters at all, it didn't help anything, because the fact that Lee had been there was already known and whether or not I knew about it didn't make any difference." Do you recall making that answer?
A: Whatever it was written, they asked that.
Q: Then when they questioned you about it earlier you said you had no knowledge of it? Is that correct?
A: No knowledge about what? I told you I knew about Lee being in Mexico.
Q: Well, when the Warren Commission questioned you about it earlier, you said you had no knowledge of it, and then you changed it? Is that correct?
A: Possibly.
Q: You were under oath the first time, weren't you?
A: Sir, I testified first time and second time -- I couldn't -- when I give testimony to FBI, I wasn't under oath.
Q: You were under oath with the Warren Commission though, weren't you?
A: Yes, but I didn't lie to them.
Q: What?
A: I didn't lie to them.
Q: You didn't lie to them?
A: No.
Q: Did you tell the truth to a person you liked and --
MR. EDWARD WEGMANN: She didn't say that.
THE WITNESS: I said I didn't lie to the Warren Commission first time or second time or third time.
THE COURT: Lie, l-i-e.
BY MR. ALCOCK:
Q: You didn't lie to them?
A: I did not.
Q: Do you have any quarrel with that quote? Did that quote seem accurate to you, or do you recall that?
A: I was tired. It was for a long time. I couldn't dislike FBI man or something, quarrel with him not to give the information he wanted this day or second day or something like that.
Q: All right.
MR. ALCOCK: I have no further questions.
MR. DYMOND: If the Court please, at this time in connection with the testimony of this witness, I would like to offer, file and produce in evidence the exhibit which has been marked for identification "D-20" and identified by the witness.
THE COURT: Any objection?
MR. ALCOCK: No objection.
THE COURT: Let it be received in evidence.
MR. DYMOND: Your Honor, at this time I would ask that the Jury be permitted to view this photograph.
THE COURT: You may exhibit it to the Jury.
(Photograph exhibited to the Jury.)
THE COURT: Mr. Dymond, do you intend to ask any questions on redirect?
MR. DYMOND: Only four or five questions.
THE COURT: I was going to say if you have plenty of redirect --
MR. DYMOND: No, I don't.
THE COURT: It is five minutes of twelve. If you only have a few questions, you may proceed.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. DYMOND:
Q: Mrs. Porter, when Lee Oswald told you about having shot at General Walker, was that
before or after you and he lived on Magazine Street here in New Orleans.
A: It was before we lived on Magazine Street.
Q: Where were you living then?
A: I don't remember now the name of the street.
Q: I mean, in what city?
A: In Dallas.
Q: In Dallas?
A: (The witness nodded affirmatively.)
Q: Did he take any active interest of which you knew, in the Civil Rights movement, that is, the integration of schools, Negro voting rights, and so forth?
A: No, sir.
Q: You never knew him to take any such interest?
A: No.
Q: Now, with respect to his telling you that he was going to Cuba from Mexico, what did he tell you about your going to Cuba, if anything?
A: What did he tell me about what?
Q: About your going to Cuba.
A: He told me he will let me know later where I supposed to go, you know.
Q: Now, was this supposed to be on a temporary basis or was it supposed to be on a permanent basis that you all were moving to Cuba?
A: I don't know.
Q: You don't know?
A: He didn't make any plans because he didn't know.
Q: Do you know whether or not he planned to live there?
A: When I left with Ruth Paine, I don't know if I see Lee again.
Q: I didn't understand you.
A: When I left with Ruth Paine to come to Dallas from New Orleans and he supposed to go to Mexico, I don't know if I see him again. Maybe he could take off and go to Cuba and like that.
MR. DYMOND: That is all.
MR. ALCOCK: No questions.
THE COURT: You may stand down, Mrs. Porter. Do you have any further need to have Mrs. Porter under the legal obligation of the subpoena?
MR. ALCOCK: The State has none.
MR. DYMOND: No, we don't have any further need.
THE COURT: Mrs. Porter, if you wish to leave, you may leave.
MR. DYMOND: May I ask that the witnesses be ordered to return at 1:30, not Mrs. Porter but the others?
THE COURT: Sheriff, will you go out in the corridor and announce that all Defense witnesses are ordered by the Court to be back here for 1:30, excluding Mrs. Porter. Gentlemen of the Jury, we are going to recess for lunch at this time. Do not discuss the case amongst yourselves or with any other person. Mr. Shaw, you are released under your same bond.
We stand recessed for lunch until 1:30.