CRIMINAL DISTRICT COURT
PARISH OF ORLEANS
STATE OF LOUISIANA
STATE OF LOUISIANA vs. CLAY L. SHAW
198-059
1426 (30)
SECTION "C"
EXCERPT OF THE TESTIMONY TAKEN IN OPEN COURT
February 21, 1969
B E F O R E: THE HONORABLE EDWARD A. HAGGERTY, JR., JUDGE, SECTION "C"
MRS. MARINA OSWALD PORTER, a witness called by and on behalf of the Defense, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. DYMOND:
Q: Mrs. Porter, if you will talk right into the end of that microphone, I don't think
anyone will have any trouble hearing you. Now, for the record, are you Mrs. Marina
Oswald Porter?
A: Yes, I am, sir.
Q: Mrs. Porter, are you the widow of the late Lee Harvey Oswald?
A: Yes, I am.
Q: Are you presently remarried?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: To whom are you married at this time?
A: To Kenneth Jess Porter.
Q: And where are you residing?
A: We are living in Richardson, Texas.
Q: Regency, Texas?
A: No, Richardson, Texas.
Q: I see. Do you have any children by Lee Harvey Oswald?
A: Yes, I have two children, two girls.
Q: Two girls. What are their ages at this time?
A: June, she is seven years old now, and Rachel is five years old.
Q: I see. Do you have any children by your marriage to Mr. Kenneth Porter?
A: Yes, I have a son, by name, Mike.
Q: One child?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, Mrs. Porter, referring back to the year 1963, approximately when did you and your then husband Lee Harvey Oswald move to the city of New Orleans?
A: I recall we moved to New Orleans in May.
Q: In May?
A: Of 1963.
Q: I see. And from where did you move?
A: From Dallas, Texas.
Q: I see. Now, when you and your husband moved here in May of 1963, did you have a child then?
A: Yes, I had one child and I expected another one.
Q: You had one child and were expecting another one?
A: (The witness nodded affirmatively.)
Q: Now, did you and Lee Harvey Oswald come to New Orleans in May of 1963 together or separately?
A: We came separately.
Q: You came separately. Who came first?
A: Lee came here first to find a job and a place to stay.
Q: I see.
A: And then I moved down.
Q: Approximately how long after Lee Oswald came to New Orleans did you follow him, that is, come here yourself?
A: About a week's time.
Q: About a week?
A: I would say.
Q: Now, when you arrived here yourself in May of 1963, had Lee Harvey Oswald located a place for you and him to stay?
A: A place already had been rented for us, he had already rented a place.
Q: He had already rented a place?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: And where was that place?
A: It was 4905 Magazine Street in New Orleans.
Q: Try to speak just a little bit louder, I am afraid the Jury may have trouble hearing you.
A: All right.
Q: You say 4905 Magazine Street?
A: I am not sure, 4905 or 4907.
Q: I see. And who was the landlord and landlady at that address, Mrs. Porter?
A: I don't know their names, sir.
Q: You don't know their names?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever know their names?
A: Not then, not during the time I was living in this place.
Q: I see. Have you since learned their names?
A: I don't recall right now.
Q: You don't recall. I see. Now, during the time that you and Lee Harvey Oswald lived here in New Orleans on Magazine Street, was he employed, Mrs. Porter?
A: Yes, he was.
Q: Where was he employed?
A: I don't know the name of this coffee company.
Q: At a coffee company?
A: Yes.
Q: Did he already have that job when you got here, or did he get it after you got here?
A: He already had the job then.
Q: He already had the job?
A: Yes, sir, or he had very shortly after.
Q: You say he either already had it or he got it very shortly after?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: I see. Now, while he had that job at Reily Coffee Company, approximately what were his working hours, that is, about what time in the morning did he go to work and about what time did he get home?
A: Oh, about from 8:00 o'clock I think till 5:00 or 5:30.
Q: And how did he ordinarily get to work?
A: I didn't hear you, sir.
Q: How did he get to work, that is, what means of transportation?
A: By bus.
Q: By bus?
A: Yes.
Q: And how did he return home?
A: The same way.
Q: Did you and he ever own an automobile here in New Orleans?
A: No, sir.
Q: Did you and he ever own an automobile during the entire time that you were married to Lee Oswald?
A: No, we never owned an automobile.
Q: To your knowledge, while you were living here in New Orleans, was he able to drive an automobile?
A: No, he wasn't, no. I don't know, I never have seen him drive an automobile.
Q: You never have seen him drive an automobile?
A: Not as far as I know.
Q: Did you know how to drive an automobile when you were living here in New Orleans?
A: No. I still don't.
Q: You still don't?
A: No.
Q: Now, during the time that you were living here in New Orleans with Lee Harvey Oswald, did you ever know him to wear a beard?
A: No, sir.
Q: Did he or did he not shave regularly?
A: Not every day, but he never had any beard at all.
MR. DYMOND: What is our next number?
MR. SULLIVAN: Twenty.
BY MR. DYMOND:
Q: (Exhibiting photograph to witness) Mrs. Porter, I show you a photograph which has been marked for identification "D-20," and I ask you whether you are able to locate
your late husband Lee Harvey Oswald in the photograph.
A: (Indicating) He is here in the middle of this picture wearing a black sweater.
(Whereupon, the document offered by Counsel was duly marked for identification as "Exhibit D-20" and received in evidence.)
BY MR. DYMOND:
Q: Would you kindly take this pen and put an "X" on the white portion of the photograph, if you will.
A: (The witness complied.)
Q: That portion, that shows Lee Harvey Oswald?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, Mrs. Porter, I ask you to look at that photograph which you have identified as being one of Lee Harvey Oswald, and tell me whether you have ever seen him with more beard than is shown on him in that photograph.
A: This is the most of the beard that I have ever seen on him.
Q: You say that is the most beard that you have ever seen him with?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Now, does that statement apply only to the time that you were living here in New Orleans with him, or during the entire time that you knew him?
A: During all the entire time.
Q: The entire time that you knew him?
A: (The witness nodded affirmatively.)
Q: Now, with respect to clothing, Mrs. Porter, did he ordinarily wear dirty clothing or clean clothing?
MR. ALCOCK: Your Honor, object to leading questions.
A: Clean clothes.
THE COURT: I will permit the question. He was leading up to it.
BY MR. DYMOND:
Q: What was your answer, Mrs. Porter?
A: He wore clean clothes.
Q: He wore clean clothes. Now, with reference to when he was going out of the house, that is, going out in public you might say, did he have any unusual habits concerning his clothing?
A: No, sir.
Q: Would you say that he wore the same type clothing at home as he did when going out, or not?
MR. ALCOCK: Object as leading.
THE COURT: I will sustain the objection. It is leading. Would you rephrase your question.
MR. DYMOND: All right.
BY MR. DYMOND:
Q: Do you know of any difference in his habits with respect to clothing when he was
going to stay home or when he was going out in public?
A: For example, if he had to go downtown, you know, he always changed clothes, he wore a fresh shirt or suit, or if he goes just to nearby, to the grocery, you know, little supermarket, he might wear slacks and T-shirt.
Q: Now, these garments that he wore, what was their condition with respect to cleanliness or dirtiness?
A: I don't recall them sloppy.
Q: I didn't hear you.
A: I don't recall them dirty.
Q: You would not call them dirty, you say?
A: No.
Q: Approximately how many shirts did he have that you recall, Mrs. Porter?
A: Not very many; he maybe have only two dress shirts.
Q: One or two dress shirts?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Now, Mrs. Porter, do you know what a beatnik or a hippie looks like?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Did you ever see Lee Harvey Oswald in such a condition as to resemble a beatnik or a hippie?
A: No, sir.
Q: Did he ever wear long hair?
A: No.
Q: What was ordinarily the condition of his hair? How was it kept?
A: It was quite short.
Q: Quite short?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Uncombed or combed?
A: There wasn't very much to comb. When he went out he combed his hair, yes, sir.
Q: I see. Now, to your knowledge, Mrs. Porter, did Lee Harvey Oswald ever take a trip up to Clinton, Louisiana at any time while you and he were living here in New Orleans?
A: Not that I know of.
Q: Did you yourself ever go to Clinton, Louisiana?
A: Never, sir.
Q: Did you ever take the baby up there?
A: No, sir.
Q: Did anyone else to your knowledge ever take your baby up to Clinton, Louisiana?
A: Nobody ever took baby away from me for any reason.
Q: Now, until when did you and Lee Harvey Oswald live together here in New Orleans, that is, when did either one of you leave New Orleans permanently?
A: I don't remember just now.
Q: Just take your time.
A: August.
Q: What?
A: I think I left on August 25 -- or was it September 25? It was August 25, I think.
Q: About how long after you left New Orleans did Lee Harvey Oswald leave New Orleans?
A: I don't know when he left New Orleans because I wasn't with him, but I saw him approximately after seven or ten days.
Q: About seven or ten days after what?
A: After I left New Orleans, yes.
Q: I see. And you say you don't remember the exact date that either you or he left? Is that right?
A: No, sir.
Q: Now, where did you see him for the next time after you left New Orleans, Mrs. Porter?
A: Next time I saw him at Ruth Paine's house.
Q: And where is Ruth Paine's house located?
A: In Irving, Texas.
Q: In Irving, Texas?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Now, Mrs. Oswald, during the time that you and Lee Harvey Oswald were living here in New Orleans, did you ever know him to stay away from home for any period of time?
A: Only once when he spent the night in jail.
Q: Only once when he spent the night in jail?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Do you remember the date or the approximate date of that?
A: No, sir.
Q: Do you recall any other nights that he was not at home during the period that you were living here?
A: Not at all.
Q: Now, did he work at the coffee company during the entire time that you and he were living here in New Orleans?
A: No. I think he lost this job shortly before we left New Orleans, but I don't know the exact date.
Q: You don't know the exact date?
A: No.
Q: Could you tell us about how long before you all left New Orleans he lost this job?
A: No, I can't tell you.
Q: You don't know exactly?
A: No.
Q: After he lost his job at the coffee company, was he away from home a great deal or did he stay around the house?
A: He stayed around the house most of the time, and sometimes he went to the library or just to hunt for a job, that is all.
Q: Where did he ordinarily spend his evenings?
A: Home.
Q: At home?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Was the baby there at that time?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: And what did he ordinarily do when he was at home?
A: Mostly he was reading.
Q: Mostly reading?
A: Yes.
Q: Did he read a lot?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, Mrs. Porter, did you and Lee Harvey Oswald have many friends here in New Orleans, or not?
A: No, sir. We have just his relatives.
Q: What relatives are these that you --
A: His aunt and uncle and their family, and their children.
Q: His aunt and uncle and what? I didn't hear you.
A: And their children.
Q: And their children?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, what was the name of this aunt and uncle?
A: Aunt Lily and -- I don't remember Uncle, I don't remember his name. It was hard for me to pronounce then, so I never learned his name, but the last name was Murret.
Q: Murret?
A: Yes.
Q: Would you know how to spell that?
A: No.
Q: You don't know. Did you ever take any trip or trips with the Murrets?
A: Yes. We went to Mobile, Alabama, Alabama or --
Q: Mobile, Alabama?
A: Yes.
Q: How many times?
A: Once.
Q: Did you ever take any other trips while you were living here?
A: No, sir.
Q: You never did?
A: (The witness shook her head negatively.)
Q: Do you recall approximately how long before you left New Orleans you all took this trip to Alabama, Mobile, Alabama?
A: No, I don't remember, sir.
Q: Did you and he ever visit at any home here in New Orleans other than the Murrets'?
A: I don't think so. Anyhow, I never visited with him.
Q: You never visited with him?
A: And he never told me he visit somebody else.
Q: Was he absent from home any night when he might have been visiting with someone else?
A: No.
Q: Was he always home?
A: What did you say?
Q: Was he at home at night all the time?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Did any friends other than the Murrets ever visit you and Lee Harvey Oswald at the address on Magazine?
A: No. Once friends of Ruth Paine visit us.
Q: Some friend of Ruth Paine's?
A: Yes, some lady with children, and that is all.
Q: A lady with children, you say?
A: (The witness nodded affirmatively.)
Q: Do you recall their names or not?
A: No, sir.
Q: Did any men ever visit you there?
A: No.
Q: Now, during the time that you were living here in New Orleans did you ever know or were you familiar with the name, Clay Shaw?
A: No, sir.
Q: When was the first time that you ever heard that name?
A: When this trial began.
Q: When this case began?
A: Yes.
Q: Had you ever heard the name, Clay Bertrand?
A: No, sir.
Q: Had you ever heard the name, Clem Bertrand?
A: No, sir.
Q: When was the first time that you heard those two Bertrand names?
A: From the newspapers when all this news broke.
Q: I see. Had you ever heard the name, David W. Ferrie --
A: No, sir.
Q: -- or Dave Ferrie?
A: No, sir.
Q: To your knowledge, do you know any individual by the name of Dave Ferrie?
A: No.
Q: To your knowledge, did your late husband, Lee Harvey Oswald, know a man by the name of David Ferrie?
A: No, I don't know that.
MR. DYMOND: Mr. Sullivan, may I have the photograph of Ferrie?
(Document handed to Counsel.)
BY MR. DYMOND:
Q: (Exhibiting photograph to witness) Mrs. Porter, I show you a photograph which has been marked for identification "State-3," and I ask you whether to your knowledge you
have ever seen the person depicted in this photograph before?
A: No, sir.
MR. WILLIAM WEGMANN: I can't hear you.
THE WITNESS: No, sir.
BY MR. DYMOND:
Q: Does he look familiar to you at all?
A: No.
Q: (Exhibiting photograph to witness) Now, Mrs. Porter, I show you another photograph which has been marked for identification "State-8," which has been identified as a photograph of Dave Ferrie, and I ask you whether you have ever seen this man before?
A: No.
MR. WILLIAM WEGMANN: You have to speak into the microphone.
THE WITNESS: No, sir.
BY MR. DYMOND:
Q: (Exhibiting photograph to witness) I show you another photograph marked for identification "State-10," which also purports to be a photograph of David Ferrie, and
I ask you whether you have seen him before?
A: No, sir.
Q: Now, Mrs. Porter, during the time that you were married to Lee Harvey Oswald, did you ever know, or to your knowledge did he know, a person by the name of Sandra Moffett?
A: No, sir.
Q: I am going to read some other names, and the same question applies to all these names. Niles Peterson, also known as Lefty Peterson?
A: No, sir.
Q: Layton Martens?
A: No, sir.
Q: Alvin Beauboeuf?
A: No, sir.
Q: Melvin Coffey?
A: No, sir.
Q: Al Landry?
A: No, sir.
Q: James Lewallen?
A: No.
Q: Are any of those names familiar to you?
A: Not at all.
Q: Is the name Perry Raymond Russo familiar to you?
A: No, sir.
Q: To your knowledge, did you ever know him, or did your late husband ever know him?
A: No.
Q: I will also ask the same about Perry Russo, leaving the "Raymond" out of it.
A: I never heard his name before.
Q: Never heard it?
A: No.
Q: Now, Mrs. Porter, to your knowledge, what if any other names did Lee Harvey Oswald use other than Lee Harvey Oswald? Did he go by any other names at any time to your knowledge?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Would you please tell us what these names were?
A: He signed signature some kind of papers with the name Hidell or Hidel.
Q: Hidell?
A: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Let me interrupt you a second. Can the Gentlemen of the Jury hear the witness?
A JUROR: Not too good.
THE COURT: Can you speak into the microphone?
THE WITNESS: O.K., sir.
BY MR. DYMOND:
Q: Now, other than the name, Hidell, do you know of any other name that he used?
A: Not at the time I was married to him.
Q: Well, at any other time?
A: Later I find out he rent apartment under another name.
Q: And what was that name, if you know?
A: I don't remember right now, sir.
Q: Did you ever know him to use the name Leon Oswald?
A: No, I don't know about that.
Q: Is that name familiar to you, Leon Oswald?
A: No, sir.
Q: Was he ever known as, or did he ever use the name, Harvey Oswald, that is, leaving the Lee of it?
A: I don't know about that, sir.
Q: To your knowledge, did he ever do that?
A: No.
Q: Now, Mrs. Porter, when you say "I don't know about that," what do you mean by that? Like when I asked you, did he use the name Harvey Oswald, would you say he did or did not use the name?
A: Maybe he used somewhere, you know, but I never heard it or never have seen him using this name.
Q: To your knowledge, you do not know about it?
A: To my knowledge, right.
Q: Now, during the time that you and Lee Harvey Oswald were living at the Magazine Street address here in New Orleans, to your knowledge did he at any time live someplace else?
A: No, sir.
Q: To your knowledge, where did he live during the entire time that he was here in New Orleans?
A: At the same address I lived on Magazine Street.
Q: You and he never separated while you were in New Orleans, that is, broke up your marriage?
A: No, sir.
Q: To your knowledge, was he rooming with anyone else or sharing an apartment with anyone else while you and he were living in New Orleans?
A: No.
Q: Never was. Now, Mrs. Porter, were you aware of the fact that Lee Harvey Oswald had any rifle while he was here in New Orleans?
A: Yes, sir, I knew about that.
Q: You knew about that?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Do you think you would recognize the type of rifle that he had if I showed it to you?
A: No, I don't think I would.
Q: You would not?
A: No.
MR. DYMOND: Where is the rifle, Mr. Sullivan?
THE CLERK: Down in the property room.
THE COURT: Sheriff, get it. You may proceed.
BY MR. DYMOND:
Q: Now, Mrs. Porter, while you and Lee Harvey Oswald were living on Magazine Street, did anyone ever come there and pick him up or pick you up or pick both of you up in an automobile?
A: Only the Murrets.
Q: Only the --
A: -- Aunt and Uncle, the Murrets.
Q: Only the Murrets?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Do you remember what type of automobile the Murrets had at that time?
A: No. Could be his cousin, too, but he was Murrets' son.
Q: I didn't hear you.
A: Maybe Lee's cousin, you know, the son of the Murrets.
Q: Yes.
A: He could come, but other than that I can't say for --
Q: You don't know what kind of car?
A: Can't say for sure.
Q: (Exhibiting photograph to witness) Mrs. Porter, I show you a photograph of an automobile, which has been marked for identification "State-2," and I ask you whether that looks like the Murrets' automobile.
A: I can't say this, sir.
Q: You don't know?
A: No.
Q: Do you recall what color the Murret's automobile was?
A: I don't remember, no.
Q: How many times did you ride in that car, about?
A: Two or three times, maybe.
Q: Two or three times. Did anyone else ever pick Lee Harvey Oswald up in an automobile from the Magazine Street address?
A: No.
Q: Did you and Lee Harvey Oswald ever own an automobile?
A: No, sir.
Q: To your knowledge, did he ever own one individually?
A: No.
Q: To your knowledge, did he ever borrow an automobile?
A: No.
Q: Now, was Lee Harvey Oswald noncommittal or was he outspoken concerning his political views, Mrs. Porter? In other words, did he talk about them or did he not talk about that?
A: He did not talk about it in the presence of me, not in hearing, not here, not in the United States.
Q: Did you ever know him to make any public appearances or speeches concerning political views?
A: One. I recall he made some kind of speech in Mobile, Alabama when he visited his cousin who was in seminary over there, but I don't know what it is all about because I didn't hear the speech.
Q: I see.
A: Then he has some kind of interview on the radio here in New Orleans.
Q: I didn't catch that.
A: He had some kind of interview on the radio here in New Orleans.
Q: Here in New Orleans. I see. And that was while you and he were living here together, is that right?
A: Yes, but I don't know if it was political speech or what, because at that time I didn't speak English and didn't understand.
Q: You say at that time you did not speak any English?
A: No, sir.
Q: Now, when you left New Orleans, how did you leave?
A: With Ruth Paine.
Q: Now, where did Ruth Paine come from to get you?
A: She came from Irving, Texas.
Q: Did you and she leave right after she got here, or did she stay here any length of time before you all left?
A: She stayed with us for maybe two or three, two days or so, and then --
Q: Was Ruth Paine alone or did she have someone else with her when she came here?
A: She had children, two children with her.
THE COURT: May I interrupt you a second? Bring it over to Mr. Dymond.
(Rifle produced and turned over to Mr. Dymond.)
BY MR. DYMOND:
Q: I can't expect you to be exact on this, Mrs. Porter, but could you tell us approximately what age the two Paine children appeared to be?
A: Ruth Paine's children?
Q: Yes.
A: At that time I think they were four and two.
Q: Four and two?
A: Or five and three, something like that.
Q: Now, what type of automobile did she come from Dallas in?
A: She had a station wagon.
Q: A station wagon. Do you recall what color it was?
A: Some kind of light color.
Q: A light color?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Now, when you and Ruth Paine left to go to Dallas, who left with you in this station wagon, that is, who all went in it?
A: It was Ruth and her two children, and me and the baby, June, that is all.
Q: Did you go straight through from New Orleans to Dallas, or did you stop any place?
A: We stopped overnight somewhere on the way to Dallas.
Q: So I would take it you got to Dallas the following day then, is that right?
A: Yes, yes, sir.
Q: Now, upon getting to Dallas with Ruth Paine, where did you go to live?
A: Oh, I stayed with Ruth Paine at her apartment, I mean at her house in Irving, Texas.
Q: In Irving, Texas?
A: Yes. I want to make correction, sir. Before I said, went to Dallas. We went to Irving, didn't go to Dallas.
Q: Is Irving a suburb of Dallas?
A: Yes, Irving is a suburb of Dallas.
Q: About how far from Dallas, if you know?
A: Don't know. Very close.
Q: About how long does it take to drive from Irving to Dallas, if you know?
A: Fifteen to twenty minutes, something like that.
Q: Fifteen to twenty minutes?
A: (The witness nodded affirmatively.)
Q: Now, when you and Ruth Paine and your children and her two children arrived in Dallas, you say you went to Mrs. Paine's house?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Did you go there to live at that time?
A: What did you say?
Q: Did you go there to live at that time?
A: Yes, sir, I stayed with her.
Q: And, as I understand it, your husband, Lee Harvey Oswald, was not with you at that time? Is that correct?
A: No, he wasn't when we arrived.
Q: Now, about how long after you got to Ruth Paine's house in Irving, Texas did you --
A: We left; a week or after a week or ten days, he show up.
Q: After a week or ten days he showed up?
A: Yes. He called one morning and said he was there, spent the night YMCA or something like that. I forget now if he come by bus, you know, and Ruth picked him up from the bus station or he took a taxi. I don't remember.
Q: You don't remember which?
A: No, sir.
Q: Now, did he tell you where, if any place, he had been after leaving New Orleans but before getting to Irving, Texas?
A: He had went to Mexico.
Q: Did he tell you how long he had been in Mexico?
A: No, he didn't.
Q: He did not?
A: No.
Q: Do you know how long he had been in Mexico?
A: No.
Q: (Exhibiting rifle to witness) Mrs. Porter, I show you a rifle which has been intro- duced in evidence and marked for identification "State-18," and I ask you whether that rifle looks familiar to you or whether you recognize this type of rifle.
A: Sir, I am not expert in rifles so I couldn't say anything about this rifle. Just a rifle to me.
Q: You wouldn't know anything about it?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: But you did testify that you knew he had a rifle, is that right?
A: Yes, that is right.
Q: Now, Mrs. Porter, with reference to the rifle which you say that you knew that Lee Harvey Oswald had, did you ever see that rifle while you were here in New Orleans?
A: Not very close to it, you know. I was just passing by when he was cleaning rifle, or sometimes he was sitting on the porch, you know, with the rifle and I didn't bother about it.
Q: Where was the rifle usually kept?
A: In the closet.
Q: In the closet?
A: -- where he kept his clothes.
Q: In the closet where he kept his clothes?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Did you ever see him take that rifle off of the premises there at the Magazine Street address, that is, out of the house and out of the yard?
A: No, sir, I don't remember it, no, sir.
Q: You don't remember ever having --
A: No, sir.
Q: Do you know how the rifle got to Texas if it got there?
A: Lee was -- I expecting baby, so Lee was packing all the clothes, you know, so I don't know what he packed, you know. So later on after we stayed in Ruth's house -- no, I don't know about the rifle -- anyhow, I think first time I saw rifle was police arrived.
Q: When the police arrived?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Was that before or after the assassination of President Kennedy?
A: After.
Q: After?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you ever see the rifle between the time that you saw it in New Orleans and after the assassination when the police arrived?
A: I don't remember right now, sir. I might have, you know, because I was looking for the guns. I don't remember right now.
Q: Did you ever see the rifle in Texas, in Irving, Texas, before the police arrived?
A: I don't remember, sir.
Q: You don't remember seeing it?
A: No. I testify for Warren Commission what actually did and when.
A: No, I don't know about that, sir.
Q: Did you ever see him with a big roll of bills?
A: No.
Q: Did he ever give you much money?
A: No, sir.
Q: What is the most that he ever gave you?
A: Dollar.
Q: A dollar?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Did you ever see any large sums of money around the house --
A: I never --
Q: -- on Magazine Street?
A: I never was looking, you know, in personal belongings like his wallet or his closet where he kept his things. I don't know about that, sir.
Q: Who ordinarily did the grocery shopping?
A: Both of us, but he was -- you know, paid the bills and things like that. He took care of the money in the house anyhow.
Q: Who paid the rent there on Magazine Street?
A: He did.
Q: Was that rent always kept up to date or did it ever get behind?
A: I don't know, sir. I don't think he paid before we left New Orleans, I think he owed for two weeks or some amount, he didn't pay for two weeks, but later on when all this happened I pay when I find out, after all this happened.
Q: Then I understand you to say that he didn't pay for the two weeks and you paid that later on?
A: After all this happened, after assassination.
Q: In other words, after the assassination, you paid it? Is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, in doing your shopping, Mrs. Porter, were you able to buy everything that you wanted or did you have to be careful about spending money?
A: I have to be very careful about it.
Q: To your knowledge, did Lee Harvey Oswald have any bank accounts?
A: I don't know about that, sir. I don't think he did.
Q: After his death, did you receive any money from bank accounts which he might have left?
A: No, sir.
Q: Did he leave any estate at all?
A: No, sir.
Q: Did you get the personal possessions of Lee Harvey Oswald after his death?
A: No, sir, no.
Q: Do you know what happened to them?
A: They have been confiscated. I don't know where they are or what happened with them.
Q: You did not get them? You say they were confiscated?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, Mrs. Porter, where were you living on November 22, 1963, which was the date of the assassination?
A: I was living with Ruth Paine in Irving.
Q: And where were you, if you know, at the time of the assassination?
A: I was in the house.
Q: At that time were you able to speak English?
A: No, sir.
Q: How did you find out that the President had been assassinated?
A: Ruth Paine told me.
Q: Where was she at that time?
A: She was watching television, sir. Part of the morning she was gone, she had appointment with her daughter, some kind, and then came home maybe around 10:00 o'clock or 11:00 o'clock or something like that.
Q: You say you and she were watching television?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Do you know where Ruth Paine's automobile was at the time of the assassination?
A: At home.
Q: At home?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Did she leave the house any time shortly after the assassination?
A: No, sir.
Q: Did the automobile leave the house any time shortly after the assassination?
A: No. We have been called to -- I mean shortly after that the police came, but after this I don't remember what happened, who go where, you know.
Q: You say shortly after the assassination the police came?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, Mrs. Porter, after Lee Harvey Oswald got to Dallas, that is, after he left New Orleans, did he live in Ruth Paine's house with you?
A: After he left New Orleans? Yes, sir, he came to visit us on weekends.
Q: Do you know where he was living during the week?
A: He was renting place somewhere in Oak Cliff.
Q: Is Oak Cliff a portion of Dallas?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Did you see the place that he was renting at Oak Cliff?
A: No.
Q: You have never been there?
A: No, sir.
MR. DYMOND: We tender the witness.
MR. ALCOCK: Your Honor, would you like me to begin cross-examination at this time, or would the Court like to take a short recess?
THE COURT: The Captain tells me we have some hot coffee now, so we will take a break at this time for fifteen minutes.
(Whereupon, a brief recess was taken.)
AFTER THE RECESS:
THE COURT: Mr. Alcock, Mr. Dymond asked me during the recess if he could ask at least one or two more questions, and I told him yes. You may proceed, Mr. Dymond.
BY MR. DYMOND:
Q: Mrs. Porter, did you desire to make any correction in connection with the date
on which you left New Orleans?
A: Yes, sir, I have to correct myself. I left New Orleans in September, September 20 or 23, or 21, one of those days, not in August.
Q: That would be 1963?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Now, Mrs. Porter, did you ever see this Defendant Shaw at the home on Magazine Street where you lived?
A: No, sir. Today was the first time I saw him in person.
Q: You say today was the first time that you ever saw him in person?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Did any mail ever arrive at the Magazine Street address, to your knowledge, with a return address either "Clay Shaw" or "Clem Bertrand" or "Clay Bertrand"?
A: No, sir. I just recall one incident: Once some men came, you know, and Lee went to the door, and he said it was men but the never saw them before or afterwards, probably, said, cover up FBI or some reporter, but that is all he said, but I didn't see him (sic).
Q: To your knowledge, was any telegram ever received at the house from a Clay Shaw or Clem Bertrand or Clay Bertrand?
A: No, sir.
Q: Did you all have a telephone there at the house?
A: No, sir.
Q: You did not?
MR. DYMOND: We tender the witness.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ALCOCK:
Q: Mrs. Porter, can you tell us what refreshed your memory about the date that you left
New Orleans, during this recess?
A: I don't understand your question, sir.
Q: Would you tell us why all of a sudden that you remembered you left New Orleans on September 25 rather than August 25, 1963?
A: Because I was expecting baby and I knew it was short time enough. She was born shortly, she was born in October, so it is longer period between August and October than between September.
Q: And this is the reason that you changed your testimony?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Did you talk to anybody during the recess about that testimony?
A: What do you say, sir?
Q: Did you talk to anybody during the recess about that testimony?
A: Yes, this lawyer, Mr. Shaw, asked me if this was the correct date.
MR. DYMOND: Not Mr. Shaw. You mean me.
BY MR. ALCOCK:
Q: You spoke to Mr. Dymond? Is that correct?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: And did he correct you?
A: He just remind me. After I gave testimony I remember myself --
Q: I see.
A: -- I make mistake.
Q: Now, Mrs. Porter, did you have occasion to see Lee the night before the assassination?
A: I saw him, sir, when he was in jail. I think it was next day after he was arrested.
Q: Did you see him the night before the assassination? That would be a Thursday night at Mrs. Paine's house.
A: At Mrs. Paine's house?
Q: Yes.
A: No, sir.
Q: You didn't see him the night before the assassination?
A: Oh, yes -- I am sorry -- I meant to say after. Before, yes, sir, he was at the house.
Q: Do you recall what time he arrived that night?
A: No, I don't remember, sir, but it was right after his job, after work.
Q: I see. Was it usual that he came home on a Thursday night?
A: No, sir. I didn't expect him until weekend.
Q: Was that the only Thursday night that he ever came home on when he was living at Oak Cliff and you were living in Irving?
A: As far as I remember, sir.
Q: Do you recall whether or not he went out that night?
A: No, he spend all evening at home.
Q: Do you recall what he did?
A: No, sir.
Q: You don't recall what he did?
A: No.
Q: Now, had you purchased any curtain rods for him?
A: No, sir.
Q: Had he asked you to purchase any curtain rods for him?
A: No, sir.
Q: Did he mention that he had come home to get any curtain rods?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever see any curtain rods in his possession on that night?
A: No.
Q: Did he ever mention to you that he was decorating his apartment in Dallas?
A: No, sir.
Q: To your knowledge, did Mrs. Paine give him any curtain rods on that night?
A: No, sir.
Q: Mrs. Porter, where was Lee's gun kept at the Paine home?
A: In the garage with all -- where all our belongings were.
Q: Was it wrapped in anything, or do you know?
A: I don't remember now, sir.
Q: Had you seen it at any time between the time that you returned to Dallas and the night that we are now talking about, that is, November 21, 1963?
A: I don't remember it now, sir.
Q: You don't remember whether you saw it or not?
A: I don't remember right now.
Q: All right. Do you recall what time Lee went to bed that night?
A: No.
Q: Do you know whether it was before everyone else or after everyone else?
A: After everyone else.
Q: After everyone else?
A: Yes.
Q: Were you awake in the morning when Lee left for work on November 22, 1963?
A: I was awake but I didn't get up from the bed. He told me just to stay there and go back to sleep, he just do in the kitchen whatever he have to do, and that is all.
Q: At that time did he ask you for any curtain rods?
A: No, sir.
Q: Did he mention any curtain rods?
A: No, sir.
Q: Did you give him any curtain rods?
A: No, sir.
Q: To your knowledge, at that time did Mrs. Paine give him any curtain rods.
A: I don't -- no, sir.
Q: In your presence, did he ever ask Mrs. Paine for any curtain rods?
A: No.
Q: Do you know how he got to work that morning?
A: No, sir, I don't know because I didn't see him leaving.
Q: Do you know approximately what time he left?
A: No. Might have 8:00 o'clock or 7:30, I don't know.
THE COURT: Did you hear the rest of that answer?
MR. ALCOCK: No.
THE COURT: Repeat it. Did you say 7:30?
A: I don't remember.
THE COURT: O.K.
BY MR. ALCOCK:
Q: At any time the night before, did you see him with any package about two or three feet long and about six inches wide?
A: No, sir.
Q: Did you ever see any wrapping paper around the Paine home?
A: No, sir. Whatever Ruth had in garage, could have been brown paper, I don't know. I didn't look at it, it wasn't mine.
Q: Did you see Lee at any time the night of the 21st go into the Paine garage?
A: Yes, he went a few times.
Q: You saw him actually go into the garage?
A: Yes.
Q: How was entrance gained to the garage, by going outside or through the house?
A: Through the house.
Q: And what door would lead to the garage from the house?
A: What did you say?
Q: What door would lead from the house into the garage?
A: I think one door from the outside and one from the den.
Q: From the den?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: What door did Lee use when you saw him going into the garage?
A: From the den.
Q: From the den. Did you go into the garage with him at any time that night?
A: No, sir.
Q: Can you approximate for us how long he stayed in the garage on those occasions?
A: Two, three minutes maybe. I have been busy with the baby so I don't know the time.
Q: Did he ever bring anything from the garage into the house?
A: No, sir.
Q: Now, you have testified that after the assassination you saw Lee's rifle again? Is that your testimony? I think on direct examination you told Mr. Dymond that you saw Lee's rifle again after the assassination when the police arrived. Is that correct or not correct?
A: No, it is not correct.
Q: It is not correct?
A: Yes, sir. I made mistake. I was confused, I misunderstand the question.
Q: I see. When did you next see the rifle?
A: I don't recall, sir. Maybe they show me during all this testimony for the Warren Commission or something like that.
Q: Did you ever see it around the Paine home again?
A: No, sir.
Q: Did you have occasion, Mrs. Porter, after the police arrived on the date of the assassination, to go into the garage?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: And what did you do in the garage?
A: The police asked me if Lee -- if my husband --
MR. DYMOND: Your Honor, we object to conversation by the police, that is, what they said.
THE COURT: She was testifying to what Lee had told her.
MR. ALCOCK: No, the police.
BY MR. ALCOCK:
Q: Mrs. Porter, you can't say what the police told you, you can only say what you did
or they did in your presence.
A: Anyhow, they have been looking for a rifle in the garage, and I showed them where all of our things were, and they went over there and didn't find the rifle.
Q: They didn't find the rifle?
A: No, sir.
Q: Had you seen the rifle at all in the garage?
A: That day?
Q: No, prior to that day, after coming from New Orleans.
A: I don't remember, sir.
Q: You don't remember?
A: No.
Q: Did you see any package --
A: Yes.
Q: -- that resembled a rifle in the garage?
A: Big packages, sir, because our things from -- the baby bed was wrapped like this and maybe other things.
Q: Approximately how many packages were there?
A: Maybe two or three. I didn't pack our belongings so I don't know what things were there.
Q: Now, when you went to the garage with the police on that morning, did you unwrap the long packages?
A: I think they did, did what they were supposed to do. I didn't do any.
Q: Did you notice any long packages missing?
A: No, sir. I know Lee was supposed to have a rifle, and they looked for it and they didn't find it.
Q: Had you packed any curtain rods.
A: No, sir.