JONAS J. BUTZMAN, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. DYMOND:
Q: Sergeant Butzman, for the record would you please state your full name.
A: My name is Jonas J. Butzman.
Q: Sergeant Butzman, were you a member of the New Orleans Police Department on March 1, 1967?
A: Yes, sir, I was.
Q: Where were you assigned at that time?
A: I was assigned over here by the Central Lockup, sir?
Q: And who was your immediate superior in the Central Lockup on that day?
A: That would be Captain Curole. Q: Were you working the same shift that he was at that time?
A: Yes, sir, I was. Q: Were you present in the Central Lockup when this Defendant Clay Shaw was delivered to the Central Lockup by Mr. Louis Ivon?
A: Yes, sir, I was. Q: Did you receive any orders in connection with your conduct while Mr. Shaw was in the Central Lockup?
A: Yes, sir, I did.
Q: What were your orders?
A: I was assigned to guard, to watch him.
Q: By whom were you ordered to do that?
A: By Captain Curole, sir.
Q: Now, Sergeant Butzman, did you comply with these orders?
A: Yes, sir, I did.
Q: Approximately how close did you stay to Mr. Shaw during the time that he was in Central Lockup?
A: I stayed about five or ten feet, you know, close around that.
Q: Now, when he went into the B of I room at Central Lockup, did you continue complying with these orders?
A: Yes, sir, I did.
Q: Now, while Mr. Shaw was in Central Lockup and in the B of I room more particularly, did you ever leave the B of I room while he was in the B of I room?
A: Not to my knowledge, sir, but this has been a long time. That is close to two years.
Q: Do you recall having left the B of I room while he was still in there?
A: No, sir, I don't recall it, no.
Q: Now, do you remember who else was in the B of I room when he was brought into the B of I room?
A: There were two other officers in there, sir.
Q: Do you recall their names?
A: Officer Habighorst and Officer Millet.
Q: Now, during the time that Mr. Shaw was in the B of I room, did you at any time hear him questioned by Officer Habighorst?
A: Yes, sir, I did.
Q: What was the nature of this questioning?
A: I think Officer Habighorst asked him, "Is this the correct spelling of your name?"
Q: Now, what name was referred to and what name was spelled at that time?
A: I don't know, sir.
Q: Did you ever hear the name Clay Bertrand mentioned?
A: No, sir, I did not.
Q: Did you ever hear this Defendant questioned concerning any aliases?
A: (The witness shook his head negatively.)
MR. ALCOCK: Object at this time as being irrelevant to the predicate.
MR. DYMOND: If the Court please, once again this would go to the credibility of Officer Habighorst.
MR. ALCOCK: Now that no statement was made, why lay the predicate?
THE COURT: I understand the legal situation, Mr. Dymond. The State is trying to show that there was no force, coercion, threats, promises, in order to induce Mr. Shaw to make an oral statement. Your position is that he did not make it, not that he was forced to make it, he didn't make it.
MR. DYMOND: Not only that, if the Court please, we go a little beyond force and threats in view of the Miranda decision. Officer Habighorst has testified that the Defendant's lawyer was in and out during this questioning, which is a very relevant point.
THE COURT: I heard him testify, he said he was by the door, a little bit in, a little bit out. That is what he said.
MR. DYMOND: That is correct. He said he was inside the door as a matter of fact, and certainly his credibility on that statement alone is vitally important to Your Honor on the admissibility.
THE COURT: He further stated he did not have Copies 2 and 3 with him.
MR. DYMOND: That is correct, he sure did.
THE COURT: And this officer Butzman just answered your question by saying he heard no mention of aliases whatsoever.
MR. DYMOND: That is correct.
THE COURT: You may proceed.
BY MR. DYMOND:
Q: Now, Sergeant Butzman, I show you a document which has been marked for identification "D-16," and I ask you whether you are able to identify this document as to Police procedure. What do you call this document here?
A: This would be the Arrest Register.
Q: The Arrest Register?
A: Correct.
Q: Is that the Arrest Register Sheet on Clay Shaw?
A: It appears to be the one, yes, sir.
Q: All right. Now, do you know whether Officer Habighorst had any copies of this Arrest Register Sheet in the B of I room at the time that Clay Shaw was in there?
A: No, sir, I do not know.
Q: You do not know that?
A: No, sir.
Q: Now, Sergeant Butzman, you know Mr. Edward Wegmann, do you not, one of Mr. Shaw's attorneys sitting on the left of Mr. Shaw here?
A: I believe I have talked to him, yes, sir.
Q: I would like to ask you whether he was present in the B of I room at the Central Lockup when Mr. Shaw was being printed and mugged.
A: I don't know about the B of I room, sir; I believe he was by the front door there, up there in the booking room.
Q: by the front door of what?
A: That would be the booking room or the -- where the desk is they call it.
Q: (Exhibiting photographs to witness) I show you three photographs which have been marked for identification "State 57, 58" and "59," and I ask you whether any of these photographs shows the spot where you say that Mr. Wegmann was at that time.
A: (Indicating) This would be the place I am talking about.
Q: Would you kindly put your initial at the approximate spot where you say you saw him at that time, approximately.
A: This is a long time ago.
Q: I understand.
THE COURT: Do the best you can.
A: But I would say he was right here at the time after I saw him. (Marking photograph)
THE COURT: The Court Reporter has to get your answer, Mr. Butzman. Otherwise there is no use testifying, there is nothing in the record.
BY MR. DYMOND:
Q: Now, Mr. Butzman, from the spot where you have put a dot on Exhibit S-58, can you see into the B of I room?
A: It is possible, yes, sir.
Q: Approximately how far is that spot from the typewriter in the B of I room? You may give us an example here in this room.
MR. ALCOCK: Are you talking about on March 1 or now?
MR. DYMOND: Now and on March 1, if there is any change.
A: I would say from here to that red chair there (indicating), the first red chair that is unoccupied.
(Whereupon, the space indicated by the witness was paced by Mr. Dymond.)
THE COURT: Twenty-seven?
MR. DYMOND: Twenty-seven is what I would say.
THE COURT: Let the record show approximately 27 feet.
BY MR. DYMOND:
Q: Now, is that a separate room from the B of I room, Sergeant, the spot where you have
indicated on S-58?
A: Yes.
Q: -- that you saw Mr. Wegmann?
A: Right.
Q: Did you ever see Mr. Wegmann inside the B of I room on that occasion?
A: I don't know if I did or not, sir. This is approaching two years ago, I don't know if I did or not.
Q: I see.
MR. DYMOND: We tender the witness.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ALCOCK:
Q: Now, Sergeant Butzman, you have testified that to your recollection Officer
Habighorst, Officer Millet, the Defendant and yourself were in the B of I room? Is
that correct?
A: Right, sir.
Q: Now, would they have been the only persons present in the room the entire time that the Defendant was in there?
A: No, sir. I mean they had -- they had, say, maybe two or three other people came in there, but I don't know who they are, sir.
Q: Do you see Mr. Alvin Oser?
MR. ALCOCK: I am sorry. He left the court.
BY MR. ALCOCK:
Q: Do you know Mr. Alvin Oser of the District Attorney's Staff?
A: I don't think so, sir.
Q: Do you know Mr. Louis Ivon with the District Attorney's Staff?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Was he in there at any time?
A: I believe that he was in there once or twice, yes.
Q: Do you know Mr. Lynn Loisel from the District Attorney's Staff?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Was he in there at any time?
A: I don't know.
Q: Approximately how long was Shaw in the B of I room as best you can remember?
A: I would say about a half hour.
Q: Now, were you standing in one location this entire time period?
A: Just about. I was in the front part of the room there and I was within a radius of maybe five or ten feet around there.
Q: Do you recall having a conversation with anybody when you were?
A: No, sir.
Q: Do you recall seeing the Defendant ever wash his hands prior to being fingerprinted?
A: Right, sir, I think he did wash his hands prior to being fingerprinted.
Q: Sergeant Butzman, is it your testimony that you heard everything that was said between Officer Habighorst and the Defendant in this case?
A: I can't say that I heard everything, no, sir.
Q: While you were in the B of I room did anyone physically abuse the Defendant?
A: No, sir.
Q: And to the best of your recollection, did anyone make him any promises of reward or immunity should he make any statements?
A: No, sir.
Q: And I think you have testified that you cannot state whether or not at the time Officer Habighorst was questioning or talking to the Defendant, whether or not he had the Arrest Register? Is that correct?
A: Right, sir, that is correct.
Q: Or the Field Arrest Report? Is that correct also?
A: Right, sir.
MR. ALCOCK: No further questions.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. DYMOND:
Q: I have just one other question, Officer. At the time that Mr. Shaw was in the B of I
room, were you close enough to him to have heard any normal conversation that he was conducting with anyone else?
A: I believe so, yes, sir.
MR. DYMOND: That is all.
MR. ALCOCK: No further questions.
(Witness excused.)
MR. DYMOND: Call Officer Perkins, please.
Back to Louis Curole testimony
Search trial database chronologically
Additional resources on the trial of Clay Shaw