CRIMINAL DISTRICT COURT
PARISH OF ORLEANS
STATE OF LOUISIANA
STATE OF LOUISIANA vs. CLAY L. SHAW
198-059
1426 (30)
SECTION "C"
PROCEEDINGS IN OPEN COURT
Monday, February 10, 1969
B E F O R E: THE HONORABLE EDWARD A. HAGGERTY, JR., JUDGE, SECTION "C"
. . . . Pursuant to the adjournment of of Saturday, February 8, 1969, the proceedings in open court were resumed at 9:00 o'clock a.m. on Monday, February 10, 1969, appearances being the same as heretofore noted in the record . . . .
THE COURT: Let it be noted in the record that the Jury is here, the defendant is here, all counsel are present, and the State and the Defense are ready to proceed.
Is the State ready to call its next witness?
MR. ALCOCK: The State is ready.
THE COURT: If so, call your next witness.
MR. DYMOND: Your Honor, before we start out I would like to ask whether all the exhibits from the preliminary hearing are available here. I know there are some of those that both sides will probably need.
THE COURT: I am sure the Clerk's Office would have knowledge of that.
MR. ALCOCK: The Clerk's Office, I presume. I think they have got the folders right back in your Clerk's Office containing them, Your Honor.
MR. DYMOND: I would assume Your Honor wouldn't require a formal subpoena duces tecum for them to be brought in?
THE COURT: No. Call your next witness.
MR. ALCOCK: Your Honor, prior to calling the first witness, and in conjunction with the testimony of witnesses who have testified to date, the State would like to make certain offerings of evidence. The first offer the State makes is -- I will show these to Defense Counsel (exhibiting documents to Counsel) -- S-1, which purports to be a picture of Lee Harvey Oswald.
THE COURT: Is there any objection?
MR. DYMOND: No objection.
THE COURT: Let it be received.
MR. ALCOCK: Next is S-2, which purports to be a picture of a black Cadillac automobile.
THE COURT: Is there any objection?
MR. DYMOND: To which we object on the ground it has not been sufficiently connected with this Defendant to permit its introduction in evidence.
THE COURT: I believe it is offered as being similar?
MR. ALCOCK: Similar to the Cadillac that the Defendant was allegedly in Clinton, Louisiana.
MR. DYMOND: I object to it on that basis.
THE COURT: Let it be received as similar.
MR. DYMOND: To which ruling we take a bill of exception, making Exhibit S-2, Counsel's objection, the ruling of the Court, the reason for the objection, and the entire record up to this time parts of the bill.
MR. ALCOCK: Exhibit S-3 purports to be a picture of David Ferrie.
MR. DYMOND: No objection.
THE COURT: Let it be received.
MR. ALCOCK: Exhibit S-4 purports to be an application for the Fair Play for Cuba Committee identified by Officer Martello of the New Orleans Police Department.
MR. DYMOND: To which we object on the ground that it has no connection with this Defendant, more particularly in view of the fact that no prima facie case of conspiracy has been made, and this is connected only with Lee Harvey Oswald.
THE COURT: Let it be received.
MR. DYMOND: To which ruling Counsel reserves a bill, making the State's Exhibit S-4, Counsel's objection, the reasons therefor, the Court's ruling and the entire record up until now part of the bill.
MR. ALCOCK: The State offers, files and introduces into evidence Exhibit S-5, which purports to be a yellow leaflet entitled "Hands Off Cuba."
MR. DYMOND: The same objection, for the same reasons, and Counsel reserves a bill of exception making Exhibit S-5, Counsel's objection, the ruling of the Court, the reason for objection, and the entire record up to this time part of the bill.
MR. ALCOCK: Exhibit S-6, which purports to be a picture of Lee Harvey Oswald distributing Fair Play for Cuba committee leaflets in front of the International Trade Mart.
MR. DYMOND: No objection.
THE COURT: Let it be received.
MR. ALCOCK: S-7, which purports to be a scene of the same distribution.
MR. DYMOND: No objection.
THE COURT: Let it be received.
MR. ALCOCK: S-8, copy of a Hands Off Cuba leaflet taken from Lee Harvey Oswald on the Dumaine Street Wharf by Officer Girod Ray.
MR. DYMOND: Object on the ground that no prima facie case of conspiracy has been made, and Exhibit S-8 has no connection whatsoever with this defendant.
THE COURT: Overrule the objection. Let it be received.
MR. DYMOND: To which ruling Counsel for the Defendant reserves a bill of exception, making the State's offer of S-3, Counsel's objection, the ruling of the Court, reasons for objection, and the entire record up to this time part of the bill.
MR. ALCOCK: S-9, which purports to be a piece of literature entitled "The Truth About Cuba is in Cuba," also received by Officer Ray from Oswald on the Dumaine Street Wharf.
THE COURT: Is there any objection?
MR. DYMOND: The same objection, for the same reasons.
THE COURT: Objection overruled.
MR. DYMOND: To which ruling Counsel reserves a bill of exception, making the State's offer of Exhibit S-9, Counsel's objection, the ruling of the Court, reasons for objection, and the entire record up to this time part of the bill.
MR. ALCOCK: And S-10, another picture of David Ferrie.
MR. DYMOND: No objection.
THE COURT: Let it be received. Are you ready?
MR. ALCOCK: Call Perry Raymond Russo, please.
THE COURT: Call Mr. Russo.
PERRY RAYMOND RUSSO, a witness called by and on behalf of the State, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. ALCOCK:
Q: State your full name for the record, please.
A: Perry Raymond Russo.
Q: Mr. Russo, where do you reside?
A: 5807 Elysian Fields.
Q: How old are you, Mr. Russo?
A: Twenty-seven.
Q: Were you born in New Orleans?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: What is your educational background, Mr. Russo?
A: I have a degree in Political Science, with two years at Tulane, three years undergraduate work at Loyola University, one year at the Law School at Loyola University, and approximately two-thirds or half a year up at LSU Industrial School.
Q: Mr. Russo, referring you to the early 1960's, did you have occasion at any time during that period to meet a man by the name of David Ferrie?
A: I met him with a friend of mine at his Kenner address.
Q: (Exhibiting photograph to witness) Mr. Russo I am going to show you two pictures which have been previously identified as State-3 and State-10, and ask you to examine these pictures and see whether or not you recognize the person depicted in the pictures.
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Who is that person?
A: Dave Ferrie.
Q: Mr. Russo, can you approximate for the Court and the Jury when you first met David Ferrie?
A: I guess about 1961.
Q: And where was it specifically that you met him?
A: I don't know the address but it was out toward the Moisant International Airport.
Q: Can you recall who was present when you first met him?
A: He was there, and a lady introduced as his mother, who was elderly, Al Landry was there, and about -- several or quite a few members of the Civil Air Patrol I guess.
MR. ALCOCK: Your Honor, may I approach the bench just a moment?
THE COURT: You may.
(Bench conference off the record.)
THE COURT: You may proceed.
BY MR. ALCOCK:
Q: Mr. Russo, after this first encounter that you recall having occurred sometime in 1961, did you have occasion to see David Ferrie any after that?
A: I saw him at -- in '63 extensively, and some in '62, and a few times in '64.
Q: Approximately, Perry, how many times in '62 did you see David Ferrie, if you can approximate? I know it is difficult.
A: Only a few, I am not sure, perhaps 10, 12, 15 times.
Q: And on these occasions where would you principally see him?
A: Well, he had -- just came over to the house where I lived on Elysian Fields. I lived at 4607 Elysian Fields at that time, and he would come over at that time.
Q: Did you know where he lived in '62 and '63?
A: In '63 I knew where he lived, on Louisiana Avenue Parkway.
Q: Did you or do you know the address now?
A: I know the address now, 3330.
Q: (Exhibiting photograph to witness) Mr. Russo, I am going to show you what I have marked for purposes of identification as "S-11," which picture purports to show the face of a home, and I ask you if you recognize this picture.
A: Yes, that is Dave Ferrie's house.
(Whereupon, the photograph referred to by Counsel was duly marked for identification as "Exhibit S-11.")
BY MR. ALCOCK:
Q: Did he live downstairs or upstairs?
A: He lived on the second floor.
Q: Are you able to see his porch in this picture?
A: Yes, sir, it is at the top left part of the photograph.
Q: Now, Perry, coming to the year 1963 -- and let's for purposes of limitation take the first six months of 1963 -- that would be say from January to June -- approximately how often would you see David Ferrie?
A: I couldn't exactly say, approximately 10, 12, 15 times.
Q: This is 1963?
A: 1963.
Q: Now going to the summer of 1963, without giving an approximation in numbers, was it once a day, twice a week, once a month, or how many times?
A: Oh, I'm sure it would be twice a week or better.
Q: During the summer of '63?
A: During the summer of '63, right.
Q: During the course of your encounters with David Ferrie, would his appearance always be the same?
A: It varied, it varied at times.
Q: Can you explain what you mean by that?
A: Well, it was a subject that he didn't bring up, but he had strange hair or a wig, and sometimes the wig would be spotted, other times it would be combed straighter and you wouldn't notice the missing part to the wig, and then sometimes you could notice eyebrows, sometimes they were bushy and sometimes they weren't noticeable at all. Most of the time though he did wear a white shirt, as I remember, and baggy trousers, although they weren't always dirty.
Q: Now, Mr. Russo, you have identified State's Exhibits 10 and 3. With reference to the eyebrows in these exhibits, would this always be the condition of his eyebrows, or would there be occasions when his eyebrows were not that heavy or pronounced?
MR. DYMOND: If the Court please, I am going to object at this time to the State leading this witness. This is an obviously leading question.
THE COURT: Rephrase your question.
MR. ALCOCK: All right.
BY MR. ALCOCK:
Q: Would this always be the condition of his eyebrows?
A: No, not always, no.
Q: What other condition might they be in?
A: Well, these are very pronounced; at times they weren't so pronounced as these, (they) were lighter and you would notice the hair, and the hairdo itself also is spotty, or at least slightly spotty here.
Q: Now, if you can recall, Perry, what was the color of Ferrie's hair, if you will?
A: Reddish-brownish.
Q: All right.
MR. ALCOCK: Your Honor, perhaps if I could have brought into Court the exhibits in the preliminary hearing, I might be able to use some of them at this time, specifically those that deal with pictures of the interior of David Ferrie's apartment.
THE COURT: Will one of the deputies go to the Clerk's Office and ask to let me have all of the exhibits from Judge Bagert in the preliminary hearing. I think these exhibits would properly be in the Property Clerk's Office.
MR. ALCOCK: No, they are in this little office right off --
THE COURT: All right. Proceed.
MR. ALCOCK: Prior to their arrival I might ask Mr. Russo some more questions, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Proceed.
BY MR. ALCOCK:
Q: Perry, can you approximate for the Court and the Jury how many times you might have
been in the Louisiana Avenue apartment of David Ferrie?
A: In his apartment?
Q: In his apartment?
A: I guess about 20 to 30 times.
Q: Do you feel, Perry, that if you were shown pictures of the interior of that apartment taken as late as 1967, you still might recognize some of the permanent features of that apartment?
A: Yes, sir.
MR. ALCOCK: Your Honor, on these pictures that I am now marking for identification here is a prior marking, they were used on another occasion. Perhaps if I mark them S -- whatever the next number is -- and encircle that number, we could more --
THE COURT: You might put the date and that would identify it, that as of today we know it is the exhibit for this case.
MR. ALCOCK: All right.
MR. DYMOND: Either that or you could mark them State-Such and Such -- "Trial."
MR. ALCOCK: How about "S-12T" for Trial?
THE COURT: "Trial." O.K.
(Whereupon, the document referred to by Counsel was duly marked for identification as "Exhibit S-12T.")
BY MR. ALCOCK:
Q: Perry, I am going to show you a picture which I have marked for purposes of identification as "State Exhibit 12-Trial," and I ask you if you recognize anything in that picture, any structure in the picture (exhibiting photograph to witness).
A: May I see another picture first?
Q: (Exhibiting photograph to witness) I show you what I have marked "S-13-Trial."
A: Yes, I recognize that picture.
(Whereupon, the document referred to by Counsel was duly marked for identification as "Exhibit S-13T.")
BY MR. ALCOCK:
Q: How do you recognize that picture? What does that picture recall to mind? What do you see in that picture?
A: This is the front room, or what I call the front room --
Q: Front room of whose house?
A: Oh, of Dave Ferrie's house.
Q: Perry, would this be essentially the same, would it be essentially the same --
MR. DYMOND: Object to leading the witness, if the Court please.
THE COURT: Rephrase your question.
BY MR. ALCOCK:
Q: (Exhibiting photograph to witness) I show you what I have marked as "S-14-Trial," and I ask you if you recognize that picture.
A: Yes, sir.
(Whereupon, the photograph referred to by Counsel was duly marked for identification as "Exhibit S-14T.")
BY MR. ALCOCK:
Q: What does that picture mean to you?
A: This is the hallway, where the policeman is is the front of the building to the outside porch, and the front room is right over to the right, and this is the hallway looking forward, toward the front, toward Louisiana Avenue Parkway.
Q: Now, whose apartment is that?
A: This is Dave Ferrie's apartment.
Q: (Exhibiting photograph to witness) Referring you once again to S-11, can you see any portion of S-11 in S-14T?
A: I see the front, at least part of the front porch.
Q: All right. (Exhibiting photograph to witness) I now show you what is marked for purposes of identification as "S-15T," and I ask you if you can recognize that picture.
A: This is the dining room area.
Q: Whose apartment?
A: Of Dave Ferrie.
Q: Now I show you what I have marked for purposes of identification as "S-16T," and I ask you if you recognize the person depicted in that picture.
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Who is that?
A: That is Dave Ferrie.
(Whereupon, the photographs referred to by Counsel were duly marked for identification as "Exhibit S-15T" and "Exhibit S-16T.")
BY MR. ALCOCK:
Q: Now, Mr. Russo, going back to S-12-Trial, your having viewed the other pictures, are you able to identify the scene depicted in "S-12-T"?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: What is that?
A: This would be the hallway.
Q: In whose apartment?
A: In Dave Ferrie's apartment.
Q: Perry, now referring you to the month of September, 1963, did you have occasion at any time during that month, without specifying at this time when, to go to the apartment of David Ferrie?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Can you approximate for us how many times you might have gone there in the month of September, 1963?
A: Perhaps three or four.
Q: Perry, do you recall going there sometime in the middle of the month of September, 1963?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: On this occasion, Perry, was there anyone else present in the apartment when you arrived?
A: There was.
Q: Can you approximate for us how many people were present?
A: Two.
Q: When you first arrived?
A: There were.
Q: Who were they, if you know?
A: Dave Ferrie and a man introduced as his roommate.
Q: Had you met the other man prior to that?
A: The roommate?
Q: Yes.
A: No.
Q: And you describe for the gentlemen of the Jury the wearing apparel and outward appearance of the roommate?
A: Generally dirty and his hair was rumpled and he had light whiskers on.
Q: Now, Perry, what specifically do you mean by "light whiskers"?
A: Perhaps a three-, four-day growth of beard.
Q: Was his complexion swarthy, ruddy, or what sort of complexion did he have?
A: I don't know really.
Q: Was his beard dark or light?
A: The beard was -- well, it wasn't really a beard, it was just whiskers; it wasn't dark though.
Q: (Exhibiting photograph to witness) Perry, I am going to show you what I at this time will mark for purposes of identification as "State's Exhibit 17-Trial," and after displaying to Defense Counsel, I ask you if you can recognize anyone depicted in the picture.
(Whereupon, the photograph referred to by Counsel was duly marked for identification as "Exhibit S-17T.")
MR. DYMOND: What was the old number?
MR. ALCOCK: S-2.
BY MR. ALCOCK:
Q: Perry, this is the exhibit I have marked "S-17T. I ask you if you recognize any of the individuals depicted in it.
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Would you place an "X" over the individual that recognize in that picture.
A: (The witness complied.)
Q: From where do you first recognize this individual?
A: The first I recognize (is) from Dave Ferrie's apartment.
Q: Did you see him on this occasion that you are now relating to the Jury?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Is this the roommate?
A: Introduced that way, yes, sir.
Q: Introduced as the roommate?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Do you see him in the other frame, or do you see anyone in the other frame that you recognize?
A: Well, I deduct (sic) it was the same man, but I wouldn't identify it from that photograph, no.
Q: All right. (Exhibiting photograph to witness) Perry, I am going to show you an exhibit which I have previously marked for identification as "S-1," and I ask you if you recognize the individual depicted in it.
A: Yes, sir.
Q: And from where do you first recognize this individual?
A: He was introduced to me at Ferrie's apartment.
Q: Is that the occasion that you are relating to the Jury now?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: What name?
A: Leon Oswald.
Q: Now, Perry, on this occasion approximately how long were you in the presence of the man introduced to you as the roommate?
A: Not but a short while.
Q: And, Perry, what, if anything, on this occasion was this man doing when you first entered the apartment?
A: When I first entered the apartment he was cleaning a rifle or polishing it.
Q: (Exhibiting rifle to witness) Perry, I am going to show you what I shall now mark for purposes of identification "S-18," and, after displaying it to Defense Counsel, ask you whether you recognize S-18, or recognize it to be similar to anything you have seen in the past.
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Have you seen this gun or a similar gun at any time?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Where did you see it?
A: I saw it at Ferrie's apartment.
Q: And if in anyone's possession, whose possession was it in at the time?
A: It was in Oswald's possession.
Q: Perry, are you testifying that this is the same gun or --
A: No. I am not sure if it was the same gun or not.
Q: Do you see any similarities between this gun and the one you saw on that occasion?
A: The stock is similar as well as the barrel of the scope.
(Whereupon, the document referred to by Counsel was duly marked for identification as "Exhibit S-18.")
BY MR. ALCOCK:
Q: (Exhibiting photograph to witness) Perry, I am going to show you a picture which I have marked for identification as "S-19," and I ask you whether or not you have seen
this picture or a similar picture at any time.
A: Yes, sir.
(Whereupon, the document referred to by Counsel was duly marked for identification as "Exhibit S-19.")
BY MR. ALCOCK:
Q: Where did you see that picture or a similar picture at any time?
A: Where did I see a photograph similar to this?
Q: Yes.
A: In the District Attorney's Office.
Q: Do you recognize the individual depicted in the picture?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Who does it purport to be in your mind?
A: The roommate of Dave Ferrie, or the man he introduced.
Q: With reference, Perry, to the whiskers that have been drawn on this picture, do they, in your estimation, accurately reflect --
MR. DYMOND: I object to this as leading the witness, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Rephrase your question.
BY MR. ALCOCK:
Q: What are the similarities between this picture and the roommate as you saw him on that occasion, if any?
A: Well, the eyes, the chin, general facial structure and the messed-up hair on the head, and somewhat of the whiskers.
Q: Perry, did you have another occasion within the month of September, 1963 to see the man introduced to you as Leon Oswald?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Approximately when was that and where did it occur?
A: It occurred at Dave Ferrie's apartment, and it was about in the middle of the month.
Q: Can you give me the occasion for this meeting?
A: Well, I just -- I came in, probably from Tulane from playing basketball, just dropped in and he was there at that time.
Q: Was there anyone else present at that time?
A: There were several people present.
Q: Approximately how many?
A: Eight or ten.
Q: Did you know any of the persons that were present?
A: I had been introduced to Oswald, and I knew Dave Ferrie.
Q: Dave Ferrie was present then?
A: Yes, it was his house.
Q: Would that have been at 3330 Louisiana Avenue Parkway?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Is that in the City of New Orleans, Perry?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Now can you describe any of the other persons that were present at that time?
A: There were three or four Latins or Cubans, there were a couple of young guys and there was one well-dressed man.
Q: Can you give me more of a description of the well-dressed man?
A: He had on a deep maroon jacket, white shirt I guess, and I am not real sure about the pants.
Q: Did he have on a tie?
A: No, not the way I remember him.
Q: Can you give me any description as to physical stature?
A: He was big, about six four or six five, wide-shouldered, distinguished looking.
Q: Color of hair?
A: White.
Q: Was this man there when you first arrived, Perry?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Do you see that man in the courtroom now?
A: I do.
Q: Would you point to him, please.
A: (The witness complied.)
Q: Is that the defendant before the bar, this man here (indicating)?
A: Yes, sir.
MR. ALCOCK: Let the record reflect that the witness has indicated the Defendant Clay Shaw.
THE COURT: Let it be noted in the record.
BY MR. ALCOCK:
Q: Now, Perry, what, if anything, did you do after you arrived at this apartment in the
presence of the Defendant?
A: Well, I was just there, I mean I don't think I drank anything at all though I was offered some coffee. I had probably small talk with Ferrie. He introduced me to several of the people.
Q: Did he introduce you to the Defendant?
A: He did.
Q: And what name were you given for the Defendant?
A: Bertrand.
Q: Any first name?
A: Clem.
Q: C-l-e-m?
A: C-l-e-m.
Q: Perry, had you seen the Defendant Clay Shaw, who was introduced to you as Clem Bertrand on that occasion, at any time prior to that time?
A: I had, approximately -- I had definitely seen him once and perhaps twice, but I am not sure of the second time.
Q: Well, the one you are sure of, where did that occur?
A: That was at the Nashville Wharf.
Q: Is that here in the City?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Can you recall the occasion for your having seen him on that date or that time?
A: Well, I was at school, and President Kennedy was coming to New Orleans to make a speech right at the Nashville Wharf on that occasion, because it was a new wharf, and I went over to the wharf with a Colored friend of mine -- he was in my class -- and we were running late because of getting out of class and just had to run, and we went over there, and we got in late and we were sort of -- not shoved but we were left over in the back, but we had a good visible view of President Kennedy.
Q: And where did you see the Defendant on that occasion?
A: Well, we were in the back, toward the back of the hangar, and he was there also.
Q: Did he appear to be with anyone?
A: He appeared to be with one man, right.
Q: Can you describe this man?
A: He wasn't nearly as tall; he was well dressed; that would be about all.
Q: Perry, is there any particular reason that your attention was drawn to the Defendant on this occasion?
A: Well, I had never seen a President before, and I had rushed over there with this friend of mine, and the thing that drew my eyes away from the President to the Defendant was that he was not looking at the President, he was looking around.
Q: Why would that have taken your eye? Why would that have drawn your attention?
A: Well, I had never seen a President and it was a big thing for me. I had attempted to see President Eisenhower back in '56, and I had never seen President Kennedy, although I had read quite a bit on the man, and it just struck me funny that someone wouldn't be looking at him.
Q: To your knowledge, Perry, did you see any Secret Service men there that day?
MR. DYMOND: Object unless they identified themselves to him.
MR. ALCOCK: I said to his knowledge.
THE COURT: If he knows of his own knowledge.
MR. ALCOCK: That is what I said.
A: No.
BY MR. ALCOCK:
Q: Perry, did you notice anyone else who was not looking at the President?
A: At the Nashville Wharf?
Q: At the Nashville Street Wharf.
A: Not that I can recall.
Q: Now, Perry, approximately how far were you from the Defendant at this time when you observed him at the wharf?
A: About ten feet, 15 feet.
Q: Do you recall whether or not the person that you had gone to the wharf with, was with you at that time?
A: Would you repeat that?
Q: Do you recall whether or not the person that you went to this wharf dedication with was with you at the time that you observed the defendant?
A: I am sure he was.
Q: Do you know whether or not, of your own knowledge, that he made the same observation you did, or whether or not he --
MR. DYMOND: Object to that as hearsay, Your Honor.
MR. ALCOCK: Your Honor, I said of his own knowledge.
THE COURT: It is a fact, it is not hearsay.
MR. ALCOCK: It is a pretty fair deduction that he saw the same thing he saw.
MR. DYMOND: If the Court please, I am talking about verbal observations. It is certainly hearsay. If he is asking this witness what the other man saw, the other man is certainly the best evidence of what he himself saw.
MR. ALCOCK: I have never heard of a "verbal observation," but I didn't ask for a verbal observation, I merely asked of his own knowledge does he know whether or not the other man saw the same thing he did. He can testify whether or not the other man was looking in the same direction he was. That is all I am asking.
MR. DYMOND: Your Honor, he can testify whether the other man was in a position to see certain things but certainly not whether he saw certain things.
THE COURT: Rephrase it that way. I will permit the question.
MR. ALCOCK: All right.
BY MR. ALCOCK:
Q: Where physically was the other man in relation to you at this time?
A: Right alongside of me.
Q: Would he have been on the side between you and the Defendant, or on the other side?
A: I am not sure. He probably was on both sides at one time or another.
Q: At any time during the course of your viewing of President Kennedy, would he have been in a position to see the Defendant?
A: Would my friend?
Q: Yes.
A: To see the Defendant? Yes, sir.
Q: You don't know of your own knowledge though whether or not he saw him? Of your own knowledge. You can't say what he told you.
A: No.
Q: Perry, approximately how long did you look at the Defendant on this occasion?
A: Eight or ten minutes.
Q: And other than that one occasion, you can't specifically remember seeing the Defendant prior to the time you saw him at Ferrie's apartment, is that correct?
A: There was one other place perhaps, but I am not definitely sure. He had a hat on at that time. It was at Republican Headquarters on Camp Street, and a man with his face and looks and also build, but much slimmer, walked into the headquarters, kept his hat on. He picked up a couple of bundles and walked out, and that was about it.
Q: Perry, approximately when did you observe the Defendant on the Nashville Street Wharf?
A: When President Kennedy came. He came twice I think.
Q: Do you recall what season of the year it was?
A: Well, it was warm weather, baseball time.
Q: Now, Perry, going back to the time that you were in Ferrie's apartment and the Defendant was there, Leon Oswald was there, and Ferrie was there, what conversation transpired in the presence of the Defendant?
A: Well, it was -- just Ferrie generally monopolized the conversation. There was a lot of talk. I think I recall there were even records being played, speeches or something in Cuban or in Spanish, and people were just talking.
Q: Do you recall anything specifically that Ferrie might have said on this occasion in the presence of the Defendant?
A: Well, that they were going to kill the President, but he had said that before.
Q: He had said that to you before?
A: Right.
Q: Many times?
A: Well, during the Summer he became obsessed with Kennedy and the Cuban thing.
Q: Perry, on this occasion did all of the persons present in Ferrie's apartment leave the apartment at the same time?
MR. DYMOND: Object to leading the witness.
THE COURT: Objection sustained.
MR. ALCOCK: What is leading about that, Your Honor? I am asking whether all the people left at the same time. That is not a leading question.
MR. DYMOND: I didn't even know that they had left, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Rephrase the question.
BY MR. ALCOCK:
Q: To your knowledge, did everybody stay at Ferrie's apartment?
A: For the duration of the evening?
Q: Yes.
A: No.
Q: Now, approximately how long after you arrived did the first people leave?
A: Well, I didn't notice how long they stayed, you know, people stayed until they left.
Q: Perry, do you ever recall a conversation during the course of that meeting in which the Defendant participated?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Now, approximately how long was that after you arrived at the apartment?
A: Approximately three, four hours; I am not real sure of how much time elapsed.
Q: And, Perry, who was present at the time that the Defendant participated in a conversation that you heard?
A: It was Dave Ferrie, Oswald, and the Defendant and myself.
Q: To your knowledge, was there anyone else in the house at this time?
A: No, not that I know of.
Q: Perry, what room in the house did this conversation take place?
A: In the -- what I identified as the front room.
Q: (Exhibiting photograph to witness) I am going to show you what I have previously shown you and mark for identification "S-13' Trial," and I ask you if this is the front room you are referring to.
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Now, Perry, at the time this conversation took place, was the furniture arrangement the same as it is in this picture, if you can recall?
A: Well, roughly. I am not -- everything was moved around to some degree, but there was a big sofa alongside of this hall next to the piano (indicating).
Q: Do you recognize any physical objects in that picture that were present at the time this conversation took place?
A: The piano, and I would suppose this small sofa, but I am not sure if it would be the exact one but something similar to that, and something similar to this coffee table that was there. Probably the lamp, but I just don't know if that is the same lamp or not, but there was a lamp there.
Q: Perry, would you mark an "X" on those items which you feel were present at the time this conversation took place?
A: (Marking photograph) And a piano stool.
Q: Now, Perry, I note that on one of these, referring to the chair, you put a question mark. What was the reason for that?
A: Well, I don't remember two stuffed (?) chairs like that being there. It could have been one that was put into the dining area, or, you know, might have been another just old one and those might have been replacements.
Q: Where, generally, Perry, during the course of the night prior to this time of the night did this party -- not this party but gathering take place?
A: Where was Ferrie?
Q: No, where were most of the guests during the course of the night?
A: Well, most of them went in the front room, that room I just looked at, and also there were eight or ten people -- there was a dining area that was attached to the front room or a section that was outstanding on the front room, and some of the people would walk into there and walk out, but essentially it was in those two rooms.
Q: Now I am going to show you what I have marked for purposes of identification, previously identified as "State-15-Trial," and I ask you if you recognize the room depicted in that picture (exhibiting photograph to witness).
A: This was the dining area.
Q: (Indicating) Is this the other area that --
A: Right, it is an adjoining area, sort of one big area broken down into two rooms, except there is a divider.
Q: Do you recognize, Perry, any physical items or objects in that room that were there on that occasion, to the best of your knowledge?
A: I think the dining table was there and I think the cabinet against the wall was there.
Q: Put an "X" on those two items.
A: (The witness complied.)
Q: All right, Perry. Now, what conversation took place at this time?
A: This was after everyone had left?
Q: Between the Defendant --
A: -- Oswald?
Q: -- Oswald, yourself and Ferrie.
A: Yes. Well, Ferrie seemed to me just a continuation of a conversation that he had had before.
Q: Now, what was that conversation?
A: Well, he had said on several occasions about killing Kennedy, how easy it would be to do it or to accomplish it.
MR. DYMOND: If the Court please, at this time we are going to object to any statements allegedly made by this Leon Oswald unless they were made in the presence of the man purporting to be this Defendant, on the grounds --
MR. ALCOCK: This is what I asked him. I think he is relating --
BY MR. ALCOCK:
Q: Are you relating what actual conversation took place during the course of that night and in the presence of the Defendant earlier and later?
A: No, I thought you were asking me what went on before that night.
Q: No, I am only asking you what conversation took place in the presence of the Defendant.
A: Well, Ferrie carried around a bunch of clippings with him, clippings.
Q: Did you see these clippings?
A: Well, I saw a couple, just the outside of them, part of them, and I would see Kennedy's name on them. I just supposed the rest of them were about Kennedy, too. I saw perhaps two or three.
MR. DYMOND: Object to what the witness supposes. That is his conclusion.
THE COURT: Sustained. Tell what you saw not what supposedly you saw. THE WITNESS: I saw two or three clippings from newspapers and perhaps magazines, and they had Kennedy's name on them.
BY MR. ALCOCK:
Q: And what as David Ferrie saying at the time he had the clippings in his hand? Once
again, only what was said in the presence of the Defendant.
A: Well, he paced back and forth on the floor, he carried the clippings. There was a speech of some kind of Latin or Spanish talking going on on a record. He didn't really -- he just didn't say much at that time, except that he did walk around muttering about Kennedy.
Q: Now, getting back to the conversation that transpired at the time the -- between -- just the Defendant, Oswald and yourself, Ferrie and yourself present. What was said then?
A: Well, Ferrie, his habit was to walk up and down, and he was walking up and down telling how the projected assassination could be pulled off, the assassination of President Kennedy, and during that period of time he told them about this triangulation of crossfire where there would be -- (demonstrating) this is a habit he had, was sticking his hand up and showing a three-sided triangulation or a three-cornered triangulation, and he said of these three people, for two of them to escape one would have to be captured as a scapegoat or a patsy for the other two, and that perhaps there would be a diversionary shot or all three would shoot at the President somewhere in the middle and one of them would have to be the scapegoat, but perhaps the one that was the scapegoat, there could be what he called a diversionary shot and the other two would shoot for the kill or a direct hit.
Q: Did he mention the order of shooting at all?
A: He did say that there would be -- He said the diversionary shot if fired would be fired to attract attention, and then instantly the police or whatever was around would look, and said the other two would shoot for the kill, and he said it would be just a slight delay but almost simultaneously.
Q: The last two almost simultaneously?
A: Well, except for the little small delay all three would be almost simultaneously.
Q: Referring specifically to the last two, were they to be almost simultaneously?
A: They were to be shot at the same time for the kill.
Q: What else was said, Perry?
A: Well, he told about as soon as the assassination was performed or had, he said that the escape would be by flight, said it could either -- they could either go to Mexico, I mean to Brazil, or could go to Cuba, said if they went to Brazil they would have to stop for refueling somewhere and he said Mexico.
Q: And did the Defendant at any time during this conversation make any statements?
A: Well, he -- at that time the Defendant objected to that and said no, that wouldn't be possible because --
Q: Objected to what?
A: Objected to this -- Ferrie called it availability, the availability exit would be to go to Mexico and then to Brazil, or to go directly to Cuba, and the Defendant said that was not possible because if you had to go to Brazil you would need cooperation from some place to stop and refuel, and also the ability to fly out of the area of the assassination, and he said that wouldn't be possible with -- instantly the police would be everywhere.
Q: As a result of his comment was anything further said by either Ferrie, Oswald or the Defendant?
A: Well, Oswald told them to shut up, he said --
Q: Told who to shut up?
A: Oswald told Bertrand to shut up. He said, "Shut up, Ferrie knows what he is doing he is a pilot."
Q: And then what if anything did Ferrie say?
A: What if anything -- who?
Q: After this did Ferrie say anything?
A: Well, he told about an alternative plan, that perhaps this would be the better way, this Plan B -- he didn't call it that but he said an alternate plan -- and he said what they could do was to make sure that they had alibis and were in the public eye at the time of the assassination.
Q: And what if anything did the Defendant say to this?
A: Well, the Defendant seemed -- the Defendant said that he could go on business for his company.
Q: Did he specify any particular location?
A: He said on the Coast.
Q: Did Ferrie say anything?
A: Well, Ferrie said he could make a speech at Southeastern -- Hammond or Southeastern, I am not sure which -- a speech at a college.
Q: Did Oswald say anything?
A: Oswald? No, he didn't say anything at that time.
Q: What if anything did the Defendant talk about?
A: Well, he thought -- in that exchange that I was just telling you about he felt that Ferrie was a washed-up pilot.
Q: And was anything said -- Did he make this comment?
A: I am not exactly sure of the words, because it was right before Oswald told him to shut up, because he said he knows what he is doing because he is the pilot.
Q: Was there a specific reference, Perry, to the number of people who would definitely participate in the shooting?
A: It had to be two or it had to be three. Definitely it was always one firing the diversionary shot. The three would be -- Ferrie said one of them would fire a diversionary shot and two of them would shoot to kill the President. With the two situation, one would fire a diversionary shot and attract the attention, and the number two gun would shoot to kill.
Q: Was the type of gun or guns ever mentioned?
A: No, except that it was a rifle.
Q: Did you see any weapons at all on this occasion?
A: No.
Q: Besides the rifle that you first saw when you met Oswald, did you see any other weapon in his possession at any time in Ferrie's apartment?
A: I am not sure, I am not sure.
Q: Perry, do you recall specifically whether or not on this occasion that you went to Ferrie's apartment with any person?
A: In September?
Q: On this occasion you are relating to the Jury.
A: Well, during that period of time I thought that it was approximately -- I associated with the same people, most of the time, with just a few exceptions, I associated with the same people, and probably some of those,if anybody came with me.
Q: Are you testifying that you are positive someone accompanied you on this occasion?
A: I am testifying I don't know if anyone accompanied with me on that occasion.
Q: Can you name these people who were constant companions at this time?
A: Well, Giles Peterson -- there were several people at Loyola -- Father Clancy was -- right around that time I was involving myself with the Republican Party and Mike Ogden.
Q: Anyone else, Perry?
A: Well, there were quite a few (in) athletics, there was Tommy Hopkins, his brother Harold Hopkins, there was Kenny Carter from Xavier, Joe Cook from Xavier, Kenny Carter from Loyola, Bush Larong, Isaiah King, Louis Gremillion. All of these were people that came around.
Q: Perry, at that time did you know a girl by the name of Sandra Moffett?
A: I did.
Q: Would you term her a constant companion during this time?
A: Right, she was -- for a period, I mean a long period of time she was. Sometimes I wouldn't see her for a week or perhaps two weeks, but I would see her.
Q: Was she your girlfriend at that time?
A: There were several girls I was going around with at that time.
Q: Was she one of them?
A: She was.
Q: Perry, was there anything else said between these three individuals other than what you have related to us so far?
A: No, not that I recall.
Q: Do you recall, Perry, who, after this conversation occurred, who left the apartment first?
A: At the end of the conversation.
Q: Yes.
A: No.
Q: Do you recall, Perry, how you got home from the apartment that night?
A: No, I think -- I am not sure but I think I took a bus home.
Q: Did you have an automobile at this time?
A: Not in my possession, with me, no.
Q: But did you own one at this time?
A: I owned a bunch of old rattletraps, and during that period of time I probably had a rattletrap that wasn't working.
Q: Are you specifically telling us, Perry, that on this occasion you did not drive home in a car of yours?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Perry, about what time, if you can recall, did this -- or did you leave Ferrie's apartment on that occasion, if you can recall?
A: It would be after midnight probably. I am almost sure of that but the exact time I am not sure.
Q: After this occasion, Perry, did you have any other occasion, either at Ferrie's apartment or any other location, to see Leon Oswald?
A: I saw him at Ferrie's apartment.
Q: Approximately how long was that after this meeting?
A: A few days, not very long.
Q: And who was present on that occasion?
A: Again Dave Ferrie was.
Q: And what if anything was Oswald doing on that occasion?
A: He was not doing anything. There was a conversation between Ferrie and Oswald.
MR. ALCOCK: Your Honor, may I have a five-minute recess at this time?
THE COURT: The Captain was going to get some coffee for the Jury at 10:20. All right, I will grant your recess. Do not discuss this case during the recess.
(Thereupon, at 10:15 o'clock a.m., a recess was taken.)
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