Q: Have you ever told anyone that you used the name Clay Bertrand?
A: I have never told anyone that I have used the name Clay Bertrand.
Q: Have you ever heard of the name of Clay Bertrand prior to this case.
A: I have never heard of the name Clay Bertrand prior to this case.
Q: Had you ever met Dean Andrews prior to this case?
A: I had never met Dean Andrews prior to this case.
Q: Do you recall at any time negotiating with Mr. Gordon Novel for space in the new International Trade Mart?
A: Not so much - yes, I negotiated with Gordon Novel.
Q: Do you recall who his attorney was?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Do you recall whether he had an attorney?
A: Yes, he did.
Q: You don't recall his name?
A: It may have been Dean Andrews.
Q: It may have been Dean Andrews?
A: May have been.
Q: Well, are you sure or not sure?
A: No, I am not sure.
Q: What did the man look like?
A: I never met the attorney.
Q: Why do you say it may have been Dean Andrews?
A: Because I recall his mentioning the name I believe.
Q: How long did these negotiations go on?
A: Well, they went on for a good deal of time over quite a long period. Gordon Novel was interested in acquiring the concession for the - what is now the Top of the Mart, and I kept telling him that he was premature, that we were not yet ready to enter into any kind of lease or agreement for that, and that he came in to see me quite often. As a matter of fact, he had come in to see me before that, because on a number of occasions he had wanted to stage an International Trade Fair which the Trade Mart was sponsoring.
Q: And throughout these negotiations he was represented by an attorney?
A: Not, no, the negotiations for the Trade Fair were simply a matter of his coming in and saying, Look, why don't we do this, and generally it turned out that the Trade Mart would underwrite it and Mr. Novel would make the money. That was the usual discussion.
Q: How many times was the name Dean Andrews mentioned to you?
A: I don't recall. I think at one period he brought a formal proposal to me. Now we are talking about the Top of the Mart --
Q: Yes.
A: - in the new building, and he may at that time have said it was drawn by his attorney Dean Andrews, or Mr. Andrews' name may have appeared on the documents.
Q: You don't recall whether as a matter of fact Dean Andrews ever physically accompanied him in your presence?
A: To the best of my recollection, no, he did not.
Q: In connection with your employment as Managing Director of the International Trade Mart, did you have occasion to meet dignitaries coming into town very often?
A: Yes, that was part of my job.
Q: Did you have occasion to go to the Moisant International Airport in connection with that job?
A: Quite often.
Q: And it is your testimony you never head of a VIP Room in the airport?
A: No, my testimony was I never heard of Eastern Airport's. The other VIP Room was then maintained by the airport itself.
Q: You just didn't hear of Eastern's?
A: I didn't know Eastern had a private lounge at all.
Q: Did you at any time go into the VIP Room, that is, the airport's VIP Room?
A: Yes, on several occasions.
Q: Do they have a guest register there?
A: I have no recollection of one.
Q: Do you ever recall signing one?
A: I don't recall. This was many some years ago.
Q: Do you recall when we were out in front of 906 and 908 Esplanade Street with the Jury and Mr. Spiesel, and when you arrived with your attorneys and were standing in front of the building that is 906 and 908, do you recall having made the statement, "Let's go stand on the neutral ground, let's don't stand in front of these buildings?"
A: That is right.
Q: You made that statement?
A: Yes.
Q: For what reason?
A: Because I wanted to go stand on the neutral ground.
Q: That is the only reason?
A: Yes.
Q: It wasn't because you did not want to call anybody's attention to those buildings?
A: No.
Q: Was there anything particularly irritating about standing in front of those buildings?
A: No.
Q: But you just wanted to get away from them?
A: That is right.
Q: Now, in the summer of 1963 did you have a roommate?
A: In the summer of 1963, I think not.
Q: Did you have a maid?
A: Yes.
Q: What was her name?
A: Virginia Johnson.
Q: Do you recall whether or not she was with you the entire summer of 1963?
A: I don't recall when she left. Wait a minute. She left me after [Hurricane] Betsy. Will you tell me when Betsy was? Does anyone remember?
Q: I can't recall, '65 I think.
A: Well, she was with me until Betsy. Yes, she was with me throughout the summer of '63.
Q: I take it then she was with you in the fall of '63? Is that correct.
A: To the best of my recollection, yes.
Q: What were her working hours?
A: Generally she came sometime after noon, cleaned the house, fixed dinner for me and left after serving dinner.
Q: After serving dinner?
A: That is correct.
Q: When did you generally eat, what time?
A: Did you say when or what?
Q: What time.
A: Oh, generally 6:30, if I had guests a little later.
Q: Have you seen her lately?
A: No, I have not.
Q: Other than this one occasion that you described on direct examination, that is, the occasion where you borrowed Mr. Biddison's Cadillac automobile to go to Hammond, do you recall ever driving an automobile of a similar nature on any other occasions?
A: No, I do not.
Q: Do you recall borrowing anyone else's automobile other than that one occasion you borrowed Mr. Biddison's car?
A: Not to the best of my recollection.
Q: Did the Trade Mart, that is, the corporation, if that is what it is, have any automobiles itself?
A: No, they did not own an automobile.
Q: Do you know Mr. James Hardiman? That is the postman that testified in this case.
A: Only from seeing him in the courtroom.
Q: I take it then that you know of no dispute between yourself and Mr. Hardiman?
A: Not at all.
Q: Do you know Mrs. Jessie Parker?
A: I have only seen her in the courtroom.
Q: Do you know of any dispute or any hard feelings between yourself and Mrs. Parker?
A: Nothing, nothing, nothing.
Q: Mr. Shaw, did you have the limp that you have today, in 1963?
A: Did I have what?
Q: The limp that you have today, in 1963.
A: I have had a back condition, extruded disc from injuries received in the Army, since my discharge in 1946. It is a condition that sometimes makes me limp, sometimes it does not. To answer your question, I probably had it in 1963.
Q: And prior to this case I think it is your testimony that you have not known Vernon Bundy? Is that correct?
A: That is correct.
Q: You know of no difficulty between yourself and Vernon Bundy?
A: None. I never met the man.
Q: Had you ever seen Perry Russo prior to this case?
A: Prior to the case?
Q: (Counsel nodded affirmatively.)
A: No.
Q: Do you know whether or not, as a matter of your own knowledge, there is a Trade Mart in the City of Dallas, Texas?
A: Yes, I know that.
Q: Can you tell me approximately when this came to your knowledge?
A: I would think in 1959 or '60.
Q: Did you know as a matter of fact that President Kennedy was due to speak on November 22, 1963 at the International Trade Mart in Dallas, Texas?
A: It is not the International Trade Mart.
Q: Well, the Trade Mart?
A: No, I did not know it.
Q: You did not know it?
A: No, I did not.
Q: Do you recall where you filed the cancellation change of address with the United States Post Office?
A: I don't recall whether I dropped it in the box, gave it to the postman, or brought it to the Post Office.
Q: Do you recall whether or not this cancellation of change of address was to become effective on September 21, 1966?
A: That is my recollection.
Q: Do you recall how you returned to your home from the Nashville Street Wharf on the occasion of President Kennedy's speaking there?
A: After the completion of the President's speech, those members of the Reception Committee who were not in the limousines or the motorcade, those of us riding in the bus were taken with the motorcade to City Hall and President Kennedy spoke from the second floor balcony, I suppose one would call it, in the City Hall to a considerable crowd which was gathered in Duncan Plaza, and after that I proceeded - the President left immediately after that speech, and I proceeded, on foot I suppose, back to the Trade Mart.
Q: I take it then that you at some time during the course of this speech or directly thereafter, when he was speaking on the wharf, reunited yourself with the members of the Committee, is that correct?
A: At the conclusion of his speech we all returned to the bus.
Q: You give no particular reason why you didn't watch the proceedings with these members of the Committee?
A: Well, I think they all split up, we disintegrated, you know, with the understanding that we were to go back, go with the bus to City Hall to hear the President speak.
Q: Were you present in the International Trade Mart on the date that Lee Harvey Oswald distributed Fair Play to Cuba Committee leaflets in front of the Trade Mart?
A: Yes, I was.
Q: Do you recall whether or not you had any part in this distribution?
A: I can tell you what happened. It was I believe in the afternoon. Someone came in, told me some, in quotes, "some nut" was distributing leaflets in front of the Trade Mart, and I said, "All right." I will come down and look at it, look into it." I got a telephone call which delayed me, a long distance call which delayed me for some minutes, and by the time I got downstairs in front of the Trade Mart Mr. Oswald was gone, presumably taken by the Police, and the TV men were packing up their cameras. I asked somebody what happened, and they said this fellow was handing out leaflets.
Q: Do you recall giving the handwriting samples that were used in this case, do you recall making those samples?
A: Yes.
Q: Where were they made?
A: In the office of Mr. Wegmann.
Q: And approximately what time were they made?
A: Between 3:00 and 4:00 in the afternoon I would say.
Q: Approximately how long did it take you to place your signature on these 13 exhibits?
A: Twenty minutes perhaps.
Q: It took you that long?
A: Possibly, ten to 20 minutes; I can't remember precisely.
Q: Who was present?
A: Mr. Robert Link, the Notary.
Q: Anyone else?
A: Mr. Wegmann brought in the blank forms, but only Mr. Link and I were there.
Q: Now, prior to that occasion had you not seen a copy of the questioned signature, that is, the Clay Bertrand signature in the airport book?
A: Yes, it was introduced in evidence here. I have seen it.
Q: You had seen it?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you see copies of photographs of that signature made for Mr. Wegmann?
A: No, I did not see any photographs of it.
Q: You did not see any photographs of it?
A: To the best of my recollection.
Q: Did you sign anything else on the occasion that you gave these samples, other than the signature "Clay Bertrand"?
A: No, I did not, best of my recollection.
Q: Were you seated or standing when you executed these signatures?
A: I was seated.
Q: Did you know a man by the name of Tommy Cox from Dallas, Texas?
A: Yes, I do.
Q: Where did you meet Mr. Cox?
A: In New Orleans.
Q: What was the occasion?
A: On Mardi Gras, oh, some seven or eight years ago I would guess.
Q: Did you have a continuing acquaintanceship with him after this first meeting?
A: Yes. He visited New Orleans once or twice, and we corresponded.
Q: Have you ever been to Dallas, Texas?
A: I was in Dallas, Texas last in 1965 I believe, 1966 possibly.
Q: Did you go to the Mart at that time?
A: No, I did not.
Q: Do you know any other residents of Dallas, Texas?
A: To the best of my recollection, no.
Q: Prior to the trial did you know Mr. Spiesel?
A: No, I did not.
Q: I take it then to your knowledge you know of no grievance between yourself and Mr. Spiesel?
A: No.
Q: On your occasions of going to New Orleans Lake Front Airport, do you ever recall seeing a man fitting the description of David Ferrie?
A: No, I do not.
Q: Do you recall with whom you went to the airport?
A: No, I do not.
Q: Do you recall what the occasion was for going to the Airport?
A: On one occasion I was going out on behalf of the Trade Mart to meet someone. I can't tell you his name, but he had his private plane and I went out to meet him. He was a governor or a senator or something like that.
Q: Have you ever been in Lafitte's Blacksmith Shop?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you frequent it often?
A: No.
Q: In 1963 do you recall having been in there?
A: Possibly, I may well have.
Q: You say you do not frequent it often. How often approximately do you go there?
A: Lafitte's Blacksmith Shop? Well, two or three times a year.
Q: Two or three times a year?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you know any of the people in there, any of the employees?
A: Well, I know John Valz, who did play the piano there. He does not any more I think.
Q: Do you know when he ceased to play the piano?
A: No, I don't, I just know he doesn't do it now and my impression is for the past two or three years he has not.
Q: Is there any reason when you were giving these samples for handwriting purposes, that you did not write anything other than the signature "Clay Bertrand"?
A: I wrote what I was instructed to write by Mr. Wegmann, which was the date, Clay Bertrand, and New Orleans, Louisiana.
Q: Were you given a copy of your cancellation change-of-address form when you filed (it)?
A: Was I given a copy?
Q: Were you given any copy?
A: Do --
Q: -- any memorandum?
A: Do I have any such?
Q: Yes.
A: No, I do not.
Q: Is Mr. Hardiman your postman?
A: No.
Q: You told Mr. Dymond you were somewhat familiar with the Louisiana Avenue Parkway area. Can you tell me how you became familiar with the area?
A: Simply in driving around the City, I know it runs from Claiborne over towards Broad.
Q: That is the extent of your familiarity with the area?
A: Yes.
Q: Are you familiar with the 4900 block of Magazine Street?
A: No, I am not.
Q: You don't ever recall driving up that way?
A: Never.
Q: Can you give me the name or the names of any of the parties that were on the bus, on the Presidential Committee on the Nashville Street Wharf?
A: This is difficult to do, it was six years ago, the people who were invited and who I believe were on the bus were the members of the City Council. I recall Mr. Fitzmorris being there, I think Henry Curtis was there. Mr. Garrison was also on the Committee, and I believe that he was on the bus that day but I can't swear to that with certainty, but it was a crowd of perhaps 30 or 40 people, in that general area.
Q: Do you recall whether Mr. Biddison was on the wharf that day?
A: Best of my knowledge, he was not.
Q: Do you recall having seen anyone that you might have at the time thought were Secret Service or FBI agents on the wharf?
A: Not whom I had seen and knew were FBI and Secret Service, except for those people who were in the Presidential motorcade, who I assumed were FBI or Secret Service men, nobody else.
Q: Do you recall approximately how long you remained to the back of the crowd on the wharf?
A: For the duration of the speech I think, which was 20 or 25 minutes I would guess.
Q: Can you recall the last time that you were in 908 Esplanade?
A: About two or three weeks ago.
Q: Would that have been in connection with this case?
A: No. I should explain perhaps. The building was sold to a Mr. and Mrs. Moses. Mr. Moses died. Mrs. Moses remarried and is now Mrs. Mouton, and the Moutons are friends of mine. I went there for a drink as I recall.
Q: Do you recall ever having gone to any party at all in either 906 or 908 Esplanade?
A: Yes, I have been to a party at the Moutons, 908. I don't recall going to any party in 906.
Q: Do you recall having gone to a party in 908 in the summer of '63?
A: I don't recall it.
Q: Have you ever seen any piece of mail addressed to Clem Bertrand?
A: Clem Bertrand?
Q: Clem.
A: No.
Q: C-l-e-m. Have you ever seen any envelope described as Mr. Hardiman described the envelope that the Clem Bertrand letters were in?
A: Brown wood grain?
Q: Yes.
A: No.
Q: Whether any features to the drawings made by Mr. Spiesel that were familiar to you?
A: No. It was a very rough drawing, it did not correspond to any apartment that I knew.
Q: You were checking to see whether it did correspond to any?
A: Since he had said that he had met me at a party at such an apartment, obviously I was looking to see if it corresponded. Yes, I was checking.
Q: And you made no marks or corrections on the drawing?
A: No, I didn't touch it.
MR. ALCOCK: No further questions.
MR. DYMOND: No further questions.
If the Court please, at this time the Defense rests.
THE COURT: Keep order in the courtroom.
If you wish, Mr. Alcock, I would entertain a motion to adjourn for lunch.
I would like to first ask the State -- they have the legal right -- if they choose to place rebuttal witnesses on the stand. First, do you intend to place rebuttal witnesses on the stand?
MR. ALCOCK: Yes, we do, Your Honor.
THE COURT: If you would like for me to grant you time to correlate and logistically get your witnesses in shape so you can place them on the witness stand today when we come back from lunch --
MR. ALCOCK: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Let everybody have a seat. It is 25 minutes after 11:00, and I am going to recess until noon and have the Jury come back at 1:30. Gentlemen of the Jury, the status of the case -- you are not attorneys, but just to let you know what is the status of this case, the State has rested, the Defense has rested, and under the law the State is allowed in law to put on what we call rebuttal witnesses. So that is what they choose to do and are intending to do, and we will give them until we come back this arfternoon. Now again, as i have so many times, I am admonishing you and instructing you not to discuss the case amongst yourselves. We are almost coming to the end of it. If anybody makes any legal mistakes we have to do this all over. As you well know, today is the 38th day -- 11 days in January and today is the 27th of February -- so we have been at this 38 days. Do not discuss the case amongst yourselves or with anyone else.
The Court stands recessed until 1:30 o'clock p.m.
Mr. Shaw, you are released under your same bond, and this Court will stand recessed for lunch until 1:30 p.m.
. . . . Thereupon, at 11:33 o'clock a.m., a recess was taken until 1:30 o'clock p.m. . . .