(Recess over and Court is resumed.)
JUDGE BAGERT:
Is the State ready?
MR. OSER:
Yes, sir.
JUDGE BAGERT:
Is the defense ready?
MR. DYMOND:
Yes, sir.
PERRY RAYMOND RUSSO, after being recalled to the witness stand, and having previously been sworn by the Minute Clerk, testified as follows:
EXAMINATION BY MR. DYMOND:
Q. Mr. Russo, you earlier mentioned that you alienated Dave Ferrie from a friend of yours, is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. As a result of that alienation, is it a fact that there was a threat on your life by Dave Ferrie?
A. Would you repeat the question, please?
Q. As a result of that alienation by you, is it a fact that there was a threat on your life by David Ferrie?
A. David Ferrie made a remark to that, with that meaning, yes, sir. Q. To whom did he make that remark? A. To me. Q. What did he say? A. Well, it was on Bourbon Street, and besides I don't like this, you know, and he wanted to talk to Al alone without me around, and I said, no, to that, that was out, and then he said, well, I am going to get you for that. Q. And you interpreted that as a threat on your life? A. At that time, yes, sir. Q. Do you still interpret it as such? A. After subsequent meetings with Ferrie I said no to myself. Q. You said no to yourself, meaning by that, that you no longer interpreted it that way? A. I no longer interpreted that as an overt antagonism against me. Q. In other words, you no longer interpreted that as a threat on your life, is that right? MR. WARD: I object. Mr. Dymond is assuming a fact that has never been proved. He is trying to twist what has been previously been [sic] said and I object. JUDGE BAGERT: Just rephrase it.
EXAMINATION BY MR. DYMOND:
Q. Do you mean by your testimony that after subsequent meetings with Ferrie that you ceased to interpret this remark by him as being a threat on your life?
A. He never ever made another remark of that nature.
Q. I did not ask you that, sir.
A. Well, I cannot answer the question with a yes or no.
Q. Do you still think it was a threat on your life or not?
A. At which time?
Q. Right now; do you think it was a threat at the time it was uttered?
A. At the time it was uttered I was upset, and I interpreted it at that time that he intended to do me some harm.
Q. How do you interpret that remark right now; do you consider it as having been a threat on your life?
A. I interpret the remark right now is [sic] that he was upset also, and that perhaps he may have said it out of anger, or bitterness, or what have you. It was never ever brought up again.
MR. DYMOND:
If the Court please, I don't know how I can make my question any clearer.
JUDGE O'HARA:
I don't think he has responded to your question either.
MR. DYMOND:
I ask that he be instructed to respond, Your Honor.
JUDGE BAGERT:
Well, answer the question, Mr. Russo.
THE WITNESS:
Can I have the question repeated?
(Let the record show that the question was reread to the witness.)
THE WITNESS:
Now I interpret it that it was not a threat on my life.
EXAMINATION BY MR. DYMOND:
Q. Now, when did this change of opinion take place, whether this was actually a threat on your life?
MR. WARD:
I object. It is too irrelevant to go into at this time. It is asking for an opinion by this man.
JUDGE BAGERT:
Overruled.
THE WITNESS:
Over a period of maybe three or four months. The exact months, I do not know.
EXAMINATION BY MR. DYMOND:
Q. In other words, by the beginning of 1965, would your opinion have been changed by that?
A. That is the beginning of 1965 -- my opinion had changed.
Q. You no longer thought it was a threat, is that right?
A. I no longer thought that the remark made on Bourbon Street as a threat as I then thought.
Q. Did David Ferrie at any other time threaten your life?
A. Not that I can remember.
Q. Were you interviewed in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, on February 24th, 1967, by a reporter by the name of Jim Kemp of Station WAFB?
A. Yes, sir, but he introduced to me [sic] as from WDSU.
Q. But you do remember Jim Kemp, don't you?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. I am reading what purports to be a transcription of your interview with him, and I am going to ask you whether or not you stated the words which I will read to you:
"Question: Mr. Russo, I wonder if you could tell us how did you come to know David Ferrie, and how well did you know him?
"Answer: Well, I came to know Dave Ferrie back in New Orleans through a friend of mine who was at that time a member of the Civil Air Patrol, and actually, what transpired was the friend was having difficulty at home, and after talking to his family, the family blamed it on the guy, Dave Ferrie, and they said that he was messing up the boy's mind, he was making him want to leave home, he was going to alienate him away from the family. So I said, well, I said there was probably nothing they could do, because I had played ball a long time and had been associated with Al -- that's the boy -- for some time, what actually happened was that I intervened and go on Al's side and began to talk him away from Dave, and finally he told Dave he didn't want to see him, didn't want to have anything to do with him. At that time, Dave made a personal threat against my life."
Did you tell that to Mr. Jim Kemp?
A. Yes, sir, something to that essence.
Q. Tell me that if your feeling as to whether this was a threat or not had been changed by the beginning of 1965, why on February 24th, 1967, would you have still termed this a threat against your life?
A. Because very frankly in '60 or '61, it was a threat. That is the way I interpreted it then. He asked me how I had come to meet him, and I said under those circumstances. At that time he made a threat.
Q. And because you used to think it was a threat, you called it a threat on the 24th of February, is that right?
A. I don't understand the question.
Q. Do you have any difficulty in hearing?
A. No, sir.
(Let the record show that the question was reread to the witness.)
THE WITNESS:
Verbally, it was.
EXAMINATION BY MR. DYMOND:
Q. Do you deny that in your interview with Mr. Kemp on the 24th of February that you said Ferrie had threatened your life?
A. No, I do not deny it.
Q. Still, at that time you did not believe he had threatened your life, did you?
MR. WARD:
As to when?
MR. DYMOND:
I said at that time.
JUDGE BRANIFF:
What time do you mean, '67 or '60?
MR. DYMOND:
Whether at the time of this interview he thought his life had been threatened, on February 24th, 1967, whether at that time he was of the opinion that his life had been threatened back in the Bourbon Street incident?
THE WITNESS:
On February 24th, I am accepting your date, I said that at one time Dave Ferrie had threatened my life.
EXAMINATION BY MR. DYMOND:
Q. Now, when you said that, did you believe he had actually threatened your life?
A. In other words, when I made this statement that Dave Ferrie had threatened my life, I believed that as that date he had threatened it, yes, sir.
Q. Now, Russo, you testified on the direct examination that you had an open invitation to Ferrie's house, to go there whenever you wanted to, isn't that right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Would you say there was a reciprocal invitation to Ferrie from you for him to come to your house?
A. For him to come to my house, yes.
Q. Where were you living then?
A. 4607 Elysian Fields.
Q. Where was Ferrie living at the time?
A. Louisiana Avenue.
Q. Would you recall whether the address was 3330 Louisiana Avenue Parkway?
A. It was 3300. I don't know the number.
Q. Russo, I show you a photograph which has been marked for identification, S-9, purporting to represent the outside of the duplex, the upper portion of which was occupied by Ferrie at the time about which we are talking, and can you, I ask you whether or not you can identify it as such?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. In other words, that is the home to which you had an open invitation, is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Approximately how many visits did you make to Ferrie's apartment at 3330 Louisiana Avenue?
A. Every visit I made?
Q. I don't expect you to be exact on that, but approximately how many visits did you make there?
A. Maybe thirty or forty.
Q. Now, could you give us as close as you are able to the date at which this open invitation for you to go to Ferrie's house commenced, that year?
A. I don't know.
Q. Was it prior to 1963?
A. May I amplify on this? I don't know in this regard because most times he visited me, you see, and then he began to invite me up there.
Q. Can you tell us whether you went there prior to the year 1963?
A. I have a strong feeling that I did, but I'm not sure of that.
Q. Would you have a strong feeling you went there any time during the year 1962?
A. I don't know, because Ferrie either came to my house, which I would be more of the opinion to say that he did, that he came to my house.
Q. But you could not say whether you visited his house in 1962?
A. No, sir.
Q. Could you tell us about how many times Ferrie came to your house on Elysian Fields?
A. Perhaps ten or fifteen.
Q. Didn't you testify that you had been over to his house over thirty times, and that he came to your house more frequently?
A. No, he came to my house in the beginning more frequently to my house.
Q. Would you say that you were familiar with the interior construction of Ferrie's apartment at 3330 Louisiana Avenue?
A. In what direct reference are you making to interior?
Q. The relative position of rooms, the position of furniture?
A. General knowledge, yes, sir.
Q. I show you an exhibit marked for identification, Defense No. 1, purporting to be a rough sketch of the floor plan of the Ferrie apartment at 3330 Louisiana Avenue Parkway, and I ask you whether that is reasonably accurate without regard to scale?
A. I have no knowledge of the back area of the house. So , I can acknowledge these two room.
Q. Tell me what rooms are represented on this sketch that you have no knowledge of?
A. Is this the kitchen here?
Q. Yes.
A. I don't think I had ever been in the kitchen.
MR. DYMOND:
Let the record indicated that the witness is pointing to the area designated by the numbers D-8 and D-9.
THE WITNESS:
And I don't think I have been to the bedroom.
MR. DYMOND:
Let the record show that the witness is indicating an area designated on the sketch as D-4 and D-5.
THE WITNESS:
What does S R stand for?
MR. DYMOND:
Sitting room.
THE WITNESS:
I don't think I been [sic] in the sitting room.
MR. DYMOND:
Let the record show that the witness indicates the area marked by the numbers D-15 and D-16.
THE WITNESS:
And I have been into the bathroom on one occasion.
EXAMINATION BY MR. DYMOND:
Q. You were familiar with the location of the bathroom, is that correct?
A. I would not be willing to say. I am not sure. I had been there on one occasion.
MR. DYMOND:
I will ask that the foregoing testimony show that the witness is indicating the area marked for identification as D-3.
EXAMINATION BY MR. DYMOND:
Q. How about the remaining rooms, the front porch?
A. I had been in the dining room, this area, and I had been in this room, and I had been through the hall.
MR. DYMOND:
Let the record indicate that the witness has indicated the areas marked as D-10, D-11, and D-12, as one room, D-13 and D-14 as another room, and D-7 as the hall.
EXAMINATION BY MR. DYMOND:
Q. Now, Russo, reference has been made in your testimony to an apartment or a residence which was occupied by Ferrie up in the Kenner area; did you ever visit him in that residence, or did you ever visit at that residence?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Could you tell me approximately how many times?
A. Once.
Q. One time?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Roughly when was that?
A. It was the very beginning of our relationship.
Q. Was that by yourself or anybody else?
A. I was with some friends.
Q. What friends?
A. Just some girls and a boy.
Q. Are you unable to name them at this time?
A. I could probably give a few names.
Q. Please do?
A. Lefty was there.
Q. That is Lefty Peterson?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And Adele.
A. Adele Marquad?
Q. That is her name now. Perhaps others, I don't recall. Al Landry.
A. Do you recall that there were other people with you on that occasion, and are you unable to remember their names, or do you not recall whether there were other people with you?
Q. I don't really recall whether there were or were not other people.
A. This one visit you made to Ferrie's residence in the Kenner area, what was the purpose of that visit?
A. On invitation.
Q. Issued by whom?
A. Al Landry.
Q. Al Landry invited you to go to Ferrie's place in Kenner, is that right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did you do after you got there?
A. There was a Civil Air Patrol meeting going on or took place as soon as we got there, I am not sure, and we just sat around and watched.
Q. Now, was that just a Civil Air Patrol or was there any practice for jungle warfare going on at that meeting?
A. Well, the meeting centered around reading some minutes or previous business, and I guess it was Civil Air Patrol because Al was a member of that.
Q. Upon that visit, did you see any practice for jungle warfare taking place?
A. I did not know anybody at that time.
Q. Did you see any such practice taking place?
A. I did not know who was who. I did not know who was practicing, who was teachers and who were students.
Q. I am asking you whether you saw anybody at that time practicing jungle warfare at Ferrie's residence or in the vicinity of Ferrie's residence in Kenner?
A. The explanation of the Civil Air Patrol, or at least their group, was for that purpose, and at that time they did not do any of that. No, they went through a meeting.
Q. Did you ever see any jungle warfare practice being conducted in the vicinity of Ferrie's residence in Kenner?
A. Not that I remember, no.
Q. You did not; you testified on direct that Dave Ferrie introduced you to quite a few of his friends?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who were these friends, what were their names?
A. I don't remember. There was eight or ten people there.
Q. And you don't remember one single name?
A. He introduced me to his mother.
Q. Anybody else?
A. Other people. I don't remember their names?
Q. Was his mother living there in the home with him?
A. I took it for granted she was.
Q. And you don't remember any other individual to whom he introduced you to, is that correct?
A. No.
Q. Would one of these friends to whom he introduced you to would have been Layton Martens?
A. I don't remember the name.
Q. Are you telling me now you don't know Layton Martens?
A. I don't know Layton Martens.
Q. Were you aware of the fact that Ferrie ever had an apartment mate or a roommate, whatever you chose to call it, that was living with him in the apartment on Louisiana Avenue Parkway?
A. At what time?
Q. Ever?
A. Ever? The person I went up there and saw and met there was, were introduced to me as a roommate.
Q. You never did meet a man by the name of Layton Martens who lived with Ferrie at 3330 Louisiana Avenue Parkway?
A. No, sir.
Q. This man, Al, to whom you referred as living there with Ferrie, when did he start living there?
A. I did not say that. I don't think I said that. Could that be repeated?
Q. Who did you say was living with Ferrie?
A. Could that be repeated?
Q. This roommate to whom he introduced you to, what was his name?
A. The roommate at Louisiana Avenue, Leon Oswald.
Q. Leon Oswald.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you know of your own knowledge that Leon Oswald was living there at 3330 Louisiana Avenue Parkway with Dave Ferrie?
A. No, sir.
Q. What year are we talking about now?
A. '63.
Q. Tell us what month you are referring to?
A. September.
Q. Approximately how many times did you see the man whom you called Leon Oswald at Ferrie's apartment on Louisiana Parkway?
A. Three or four.
Q. Three or four times?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Commencing approximately when and ending approximately when?
A. It began about the middle of September.
Q. When was the last time you saw him there?
A. Around the beginning of October or maybe late September.
Q. In other words, it would have been all three times within a period of two to three weeks, is that right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was there one or more than party which took place at Ferrie's apartment on Louisiana Avenue Parkway?
A. By party, you mean many people?
Q. That is right?
A. There was only one.
Q. And when did that party take place?
A. Around the middle of the month.
Q. Is that as close as you can come on dates?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. When you refer to the middle of the month of September of 1963, within what bounds, date-wise, do you term the middle of the month?
A. I never really gave that, you know, put it the way you're phrasing it, any serious thought. The middle of the month to me is after the fifteenth.
Q. After the fifteenth, you say?
A. Yes.
Q. Would you call the twentieth the latter part of the month?
A. It would probably be the middle also.
Q. You have testified as to having attended this party at Ferrie's apartment in mid-September of 1963; how did you get up there to the apartment?
A. I recollect that I was brought up.
Q. By whom?
A. One or the other of my friends.
Q. One or the other of your friends?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you don't remember what friend brought you up there?
A. At that period of time, many people were with me at that time.
Q. Russo, you did not have any trouble testifying --
MR. WARD:
I would like to make an objection. He is assuming a fact, and it is argumentative.
JUDGE BAGERT:
Objection sustained. Rephrase the question.
EXAMINATION BY MR. DYMOND:
Q. Can you explain why your memory --
MR. WARD:
I object.
JUDGE BAGERT:
Sustained. It is an improper question. It is an unfair question. Just ask him the facts.
EXAMINATION BY MR. DYMOND:
Q. You are testifying you don't know who took you there?
A. I am testifying I was with a bunch of people.
Q. How many people?
A. Maybe three others besides myself.
Q. And you can't name one of them, can you?
MR. WARD:
I object. He has never asked that question before.
JUDGE BAGERT:
The objection is overruled.
EXAMINATION BY MR. DYMOND:
Q. You cannot name one of them, can you?
A. There was friends there. I could tell you who I associated with at the time. I am sure it was one of them.
Q. Can you name one of the three or four people who went with you to the Oswald party, the party which you testified to; I meant at Ferrie's apartment in mid-September of 1963?
A. Peterson was with me that night. I am sure he came inside. I will testify for him, but I am sure he came inside.
Q. Did he go to the house with you, in the same vehicle?
A. Well, we had two or three cars. We were up playing basketball up at school. There was just a bunch of people, a bunch of boys and girls. We had either finished studying or what, I don't know, what particular reason we were up there at school. I was always up there late at night, every night, and so, I just drove back, and I don't think I was in my own car because I don't think I had a car at the time. Who stepped in with me -- I am sure Lefty did.
Q. You are sure Lefty was in the car with you?
A. I am sure he stepped up with me. I don't know if he was in another car or not.
Q. Well, give us the names of all the other people who went there in all of the cars with you?
A. I don't remember all the cars that went with me. Inside I would say Lefty Peterson was there, and Sandra Moffett, and that is all I can definitely, would be willingly definitely say [sic] was there.
Q. How many cars were there?
A. What time now?
Q. Going with you in the same group to Ferrie's apartment?
A. Leaving Tulane?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. It must have been with ten people, maybe three cars.
Q. Did the occupants of all three of the cars go to the party?
A. No.
Q. Approximately how many of them did go to the party?
A. Two or three. These two came in with me, but whether they stayed, I don't think they took part in the party.
Q. Do you know why they went there?
A. They are friends of mine.
Q. Did you tell them that there would be a party there?
A. I did not know there was a party.
Q. Did you invite them to go with you?
A. Dave had met them before, and I never objected to any of Dave's friends, and he never said anything about mine.
Q. Did you invite them to go with you or not?
A. I probably did. I don't recall.
Q. Now, you have testified that Sandra Moffett and Lefty Peterson went there with you, but cannot say that they were in the same automobile, is that right?
A. They may or they may not have been. I don't know.
Q. Can you name any other people who arrived at that party at approximately the same time you did?
A. I can name some other people I was with at Tulane, that were perhaps at Tulane with me.
Q. I am asking you whether you can name any other people who arrived at this party at approximately the same time that you did?
A. No, sir.
Q. This Sandra Moffett, is she a local girl or not?
A. No, sir.
Q. Where is she from?
A. She is from Alabama.
Q. What part of Alabama?
A. I don't know.
Q. Where did you know her?
A. I met her some years before.
Q. Was she a Tulane student?
A. No, just a girl I had met.
Q. Where did you meet her?
MR. WARD:
I object. It is irrelevant. It has nothing to do with probable cause.
JUDGE BAGERT:
Objection is overruled.
THE WITNESS:
I don't recall the first time I met Sandra.
EXAMINATION BY MR. DYMOND:
Q. You don't recall the first time you met her, you say?
A. No, sir.
Q. So, you don't know who introduced you to her?
A. No, sir.
Q. And you don't know where you were introduced to her?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you ever go out with her on any other occasions?
A. Several.
Q. Approximately how many?
A. I cannot recall.
Q. Do you know where she lived at that time?
A. She lived -- I don't know the name of the street. I could show you the residence.
Q. In what area of the City was it?
A. Canal and Broad.
Q. In the neighborhood of Canal and Broad?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was it a street running parallel to the river or perpendicular to the river?
A. It was running perpendicular to the river.
Q. Tell us approximately how many blocks from the corner of Canal and Broad?
MR. WARD:
I make the same objection. We would be here for weeks with this. It is so irrelevant.
JUDGE BAGERT:
What is the relevancy of this?
MR. DYMOND:
We have here a witness testifying about another individual who went to the party with him. It is conceivable that we would be able to produce the witness if we know who she is and where she is.
JUDGE BAGERT:
Objection overruled.
EXAMINATION BY MR. DYMOND:
Q. Can you tell us now how many blocks from the corner of Canal and Broad this girl lived?
A. No, sir.
Q. You went out with her quite a few times?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You used to pick her up at her home?
A. No.
Q. Where did you used to pick her up from?
A. Very rarely did I pick her up at her home. She came over to my house.
Q. How many times did you pick her up at her home?
A. Maybe twice, three times.
Q. And you cannot give us any estimate as to how many blocks from Canal and Broad?
A. Perhaps I can show you the residence.
Q. Can you give us an estimate of how many blocks?
A. No, sir.
Q. About what time of the day or night was it that you arrived at this party?
A. At night.
Q. About what time?
A. I don't recall. Just late. I know it was late.
Q. Is it your testimony you cannot even approximate the time?
A. My testimony is that it was late.
Q. Is that as definite as you can be about it?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was it before or after midnight?
A. It was before midnight. It went on after, until after midnight.
Q. Was it before or after ten PM?
A. I don't know.
Q. Still, you are able to remember how everybody was dressed, is that right?
MR. WARD:
I object to that. It is argumentative.
JUDGE BAGERT:
Sustained.