AFTER THE RECESS:
THE COURT: Are the State and the Defense ready to proceed?
MR. DYMOND: Yes, sir.
MR. ALCOCK: The State is ready.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. ALCOCK:
Q: Perry, I think that I recall on cross-examination that you mentioned the fact
that David Ferrie had exhibited considerable knowledge in the field of medicine. Is that correct? Am I correct when I say that?
A: Yes, he had a laboratory and he talked a great deal about medical things.
Q: (Exhibiting photographs to witness) Perry, I am going to show you three pictures, which I have marked for purposes of identification as "State 21, 22" and "State 23," and I ask you to view these pictures, and I ask you if you recognize any of the objects exhibited in the pictures.
MR. DYMOND: If the Court please, we object to this on the ground that it is completely irrelevant to the issues in this case. I think if Your Honor will examine the photographs you will see what I mean.
(Photographs exhibited to the Court.)
THE COURT: I would like to ask Mr. Alcock, do you intend to link this up with the --
MR. ALCOCK: Your Honor, I think that these will demonstrate to the Court and the Jury that when Perry Russo said thathe exhibited great knowledge in medicine and in the field of medicine and dabbled I it, that these pictures will corroborate that testimony.
THE COURT: I will overrule the objection and permit it as corroborative evidence.
MR. DYMOND: To which ruling Counsel objects and reserves a bill, making the State's offerings, S-21, S-22, and S-23, the Defense objection, the Court's ruling and the entire record up to now part of the bill.
(Whereupon, the photographs referred to by Counsel were duly marked for identification as "Exhibit S-21, S-22," and "Exhibit S-23.")
BY MR. ALCOCK:
Q: Do you recognize the objects depicted in those pictures?
A: The microscope and --
MR. DYMOND: Now, if Your Honor please, we object here on the ground that this witness is not a medical expert by any means and here we have him trying to identify alleged medical equipment.
MR. ALCOCK: He is merely identifying the physical objects.
THE COURT: Overrule the objection. I feel it is not necessary to have an expert to answer the particular question.
MR. DYMOND: To which ruling Counsel objects and reserves a bill, making the State's question, the Defense objection, reasons therefor, the Court's ruling, and the entire testimony and the same three exhibits and the record to date, part of the bill.
THE COURT:
He is not asking the witness for a medical reply, he is asking for the reply of an average ordinary citizen. He is not asking an expert question which needs an expert answer. All right, you may proceed.
BY MR. ALCOCK:
Q: Go ahead.
A: The microscope looks familiar, and the black box and these test tubes -- I am not sure about the container, the porcelain container I am not sure about, but the frame container for the tubes is familiar.
Q: Where if anywhere did you see the objects that you have just identified?
A: In Dave Ferrie's apartment.
Q: Would that be on Louisiana Avenue Parkway?
A: I think some medical things -- I think this microscope (indicating) might have been out at Kenner, too, but I think these were at Louisiana Avenue.
Q: All right. Now you were referring at that time to State's Exhibit 22?
A: Well, I mean this microscope in all three of them.
Q: You recognize the microscope to be the microscope that was in Dave Ferrie's apart- ment or --
MR. DYMOND: Object to leading the witness.
THE COURT: Rephrase the question.
BY MR. ALCOCK:
Q: Do you recognize this to be the microscope or a similar one?
A: It appears to be the one or a similar one -- I am not sure exactly the same one, but it looks like the one he had there.
Q: Thank you. Now, Perry, at that time did you know Clay Shaw?
A: Was this on March 1?
Q: March 1.
A: I knew a man that I knew as Clem Bertrand.
Q: Did you know Clay Shaw as Clay Shaw, or Clay Shaw as Clem Bertrand?
A: I had been told in the previous week that --
MR. DYMOND: Object to what he had been told.
THE COURT: Objection sustained.
A: I had learned the man's real name was --
MR. DYMOND: Your Honor, I object. He is putting it in just a different way.
THE COURT: I sustain the objection.
BY MR. ALCOCK:
Q: Did you know Clay Shaw as Clay Shaw, or Clay Shaw as Clem Bertrand?
A: I never knew anyone named Clay Shaw.
Q: So when you responded to the question, do you know Clay Shaw, and you responded no, why did you respond no to that question?
A: Because I didn't know Clay Shaw. I was introduced to a man named Clem Bertrand.
Q: Perry, in Baton Rouge on February 24, and more specifically your interview with Jim Kemp, during the course of that interview with Jim Kemp did he exhibit any photographs to you?
A: In Baton Rouge.
Q: Yes.
A: No, sir.
Q: Did he ask you to identify any photographs?
A: No photographs were shown to me and he didn't ask me to identify photographs.
Q: Now referring to your interview with Mr. Bankston, were you shown any photographs and asked to identify any photographs?
A: No. We talked in general about Dave Ferrie.
Q: At that time, which would have been February 24, 1967, did you know anyone by the name of Clay Shaw?
A: On February 24?
Q: Yes.
A: I had never heard the name Clay Shaw before in my life.
Q: Perry, can you recall when you learned the correct name of the Defendant before the Bar?
A: Would you repeat that?
Q: Do you recall when you first learned the correct name of the Defendant?
A: It was sometime after the 27th, I would just say about the middle of the week.
Q: Did you learn it in Baton Rouge or in New Orleans?
A: I learned it in New Orleans.
Q: Now, Perry, did you identify the person depicted in State's Exhibit No. 1 to Andrew Sciambra on February 25, 1967?
MR. DYMOND: Your Honor, I again object to leading the witness.
MR. ALCOCK: That is not leading, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Rephrase the question.
BY MR. ALCOCK:
Q: Did you identify any pictures for Mr. Sciambra on February 25, 1967?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: (Exhibiting photograph to witness) Is S-1 one of those pictures?
A: I am not sure if it is the exact picture, I think it was only the right half, it was an enlargement of the right half.
Q: And how did you identify the picture?
A: Well, he had the picture, several pictures with him, or quite a few, and I pulled this one out when he showed it to me, and I said that I had known this man.
Q: And did you say where you had known this man?
A: I said that he was a roommate of Ferrie's.
Q: Now, was this before or after any attempt was made to draw any whiskers on the picture?
A: This was in Baton Rouge, this was before, although we did attempt to draw whiskers at that time.
Q: Was the identification made before the attempt or after the attempt?
A: Identification was made before the attempt.
Q: Perry, can you tell us why in the interview with James or Jim Kemp on February 24, 1967, you did not go into detail or into the degree of detail that you have gone into in this courtroom today?
A: Well, this was at Channel 2 at Baton Rouge -- Channel 9 -- one or the other, one of the two stations -- there are only two stations up there -- and he had no photographs, it was just a general interview, he had no photographs that he showed me. He mentioned no names except Harvey Lee Oswald's name. Of course, Dave Ferrie's name, he mentioned that. He didn't go into -- well, he had no photographs to say, well, is this guy involved or that guy involved, he didn't show me anything, all he did was set it up and turn on a camera and we started talking, or he started asking questions.
Q: Would that be the same reason why you did not go into this detail with Mr. Bankston?
A: Well, Mr. Bankston was interested in Dave Ferrie. He indicated an interest in Lee Harvey Oswald, which I was not going to tell him I knew Lee Harvey Oswald. I had known a Leon Oswald, and I maintain that to this point right now, and he didn't have any photographs either, none of them had any photographs, all they did was just talk.
Q: Perry, do you realize the seriousness of this change?
MR. DYMOND: I object to that, Your Honor.
THE COURT: I sustain the objection.
MR. ALCOCK: On what ground, Your Honor? I would like to know the ground for the objection.
THE COURT: It makes no difference what he thinks. There is law on it, and the law is serious, the law makes it out to be a crime.
BY MR. ALCOCK:
Q: Perry, are you today identifying the Defendant Clay Shaw as the same man that you saw in Ferrie's apartment in mid-September, 1963, who was identified to you as Clem
Bertrand?
MR. DYMOND: Object as a leading question.
THE COURT: Overrule the objection.
MR. DYMOND: To which ruling Counsel reserves a bill of exception, making the State's question, the Defense objection, the Court's ruling, the reason for the objection, and the entire record up until this point part of the bill.
BY MR. ALCOCK:
Q: Answer the question.
A: The question is whether Clay Shaw and Clem Bertrand are one and the same? They are.
MR. ALCOCK: No further questions.
THE COURT: All right. You may step down.
MR. DYMOND: Your Honor, I have a few questions.
THE COURT: Very well, you may recross.
RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. DYMOND:
Q: Mr. Russo, were you not permitted to look at Clay Shaw through a one-way glass in the District Attorney's Office?
MR. ALCOCK: Objection, Your Honor. This was not brought out on redirect. He can only go on recross on what was brought out on redirect.
MR. DYMOND: If the Court please, this was brought out on redirect and has to do with his not knowing who Clay Shaw was on March 1.
THE COURT: I will permit the question.
BY MR. DYMOND:
Q: Do you remember the question?
A: Did I identify Clay Shaw through a one-way mirror?
Q: Yes.
A: Is that correct, or similar to that?
Q: On March 1, 1967 in the District Attorney's Office.
A: I am not sure of the date -- I am almost sure it was March 1 -- but yes, I did.
Q: Is it not a fact that Clay Shaw was sitting in one of the office that you were in another portion of the District Attorney's Office in general, and were able to see through what from the inside of the office where Clay Shaw was appeared to be a mirror?
A: Right.
Q: Is it not a fact that you were told who this subject was who was sitting in there at that time?
MR. ALCOCK: Objection.
THE COURT: I will permit the question. On what grounds?
MR. ALCOCK: Hearsay.
THE COURT: I will permit it.
THE WITNESS: Would you repeat that?
BY MR. DYMOND:
Q: Is it not a fact that when you were permitted to look at Clay Shaw through this one-
way glass, you were told who he was?
A: I had been told that before, probably was told, or I heard the name at that same time also.
Q: That was on March 1? Right?
A: I had been told -- I think if I came down to New Orleans on the 27th, I was probably told the next day or the day after.
Q: What you were told was what Clay Shaw's real name was, one day or two days after you got down there?
A: The middle of that week it would probably be.
Q: But you did know his real name when you looked at him?
A: His name to me is Clem Bertrand, I am not going to claim him as Clay Shaw right now.
Q: Were you not informed by a representative of the DA's Office that you were looking at Clay Shaw through a one-way glass?
A: No District Attorney walked in there and said you are looking at Clay Shaw through a one-way glass, I am sure of that.
Q: Did anyone inform you of the actual name of the man you were looking at?
A: I said that they did, someone did.
Q: Now, is it not a fact that the interview which was conducted by Korbel and the other reporter on the steps of the courthouse, was taken as you were leaving the courthouse that day?
A: Right.
Q: Is it not a fact then that you did know the correct name of Clay Shaw when you --
A: No, I didn't know Clay Shaw and I don't know Clay Shaw right now.
Q: Let me ask the question before you answer it.
THE COURT: Cut the screaming down. We can do better talking low. Let him finish the question and then you can answer it.
BY MR. DYMOND:
Q: If you had been told this man's correct name when you were looking through the one-
way glass in the DA's Office, and this interview was taken when you were leaving the building, why didn't you know his correct name then?
A: Because I never was introduced to a man named Clay Shaw, I was introduced to Clem Bertrand and that is still the name that he goes under to me right now.
Q: You wouldn't be splitting hairs on this, would you?
MR. ALCOCK: Objection, Your Honor.
THE COURT: That is argument.
THE BAILIFF: Order, order, please!
BY MR. DYMOND:
Q: Do you still say you weren't told that was Clay Shaw you were looking at?
MR. ALCOCK: Objection. He has answered the question.
THE COURT: He has answered the question. I sustain the objection. Cool it down, please, Gentlemen. We can do just as well by keeping our voices down.
MR. DYMOND: Your Honor, when somebody tries to talk when you are still asking a question, you have to raise your voice to be heard.
BY MR. DYMOND:
Q: Now, in talking about your interview with Jim Kemp up in Baton Rouge, you say you
didn't mention the name Lee Harvey Oswald because you had known a Leon Oswald? Is that right?
A: Right.
Q: Isn't it a fact that you also did not mention anything about a plot meeting or a conspiracy meeting?
MR. ALCOCK: Objection. He has answered the question.
MR. DYMOND: If the Court please, the State went into this on redirect.
MR. ALCOCK: And he answered the question.
MR. DYMOND: I would like to go into it now.
MR. ALCOCK: He has answered the question.
BY MR. DYMOND:
Q: Isn't it a fact --
MR. ALCOCK: Objection.
MR. DYMOND: You have been overruled.
MR. ALCOCK: I have not been overruled.
THE COURT: If it has been brought out on redirect -- and I think it has been -- what questions were put by the reporters, without pictures -- I believe Mr. Dymond is referring to the same interview on recross, and he should be permitted to go into it. Therefore I overrule the State's objection.
BY MR. DYMOND:
Q: Would you answer the question, please.
A: Would you read the question?
(Whereupon, the pending question was read back by the Reporter.)
A: To Jim Kemp?
BY MR. DYMOND:
Q: Right.
A: Jim Kemp never asked me anything along those lines.
Q: I see. But in spite of that you told your friends after the assassination that Leon Oswald and Lee Harvey Oswald were the same person, is that right?
MR. ALCOCK: Objection, Your Honor. That wasn't brought out on redirect.
MR. DYMOND: It is in relation to the question I just finished asking.
THE COURT: Overrule the objection.
A: I told some friends of mine I think I knew that man.
BY MR. DYMOND:
Q: Still you didn't mention anything about this to Jim Kemp? Right?
A: Right.
THE COURT: Now I am going to intercede. He only answered the questions that were put to him, he didn't volunteer anything. That is what I understand.
MR. DYMOND: If Your Honor please, we object to the Court commenting on the evidence, we do, and we move for a mistrial.
THE COURT: Well, it is denied.
MR. DYMOND: -- on the ground that the Court commented on evidence, and reserve a bill of exception to the Court's ruling, making the Court's comment and the entire record up to this time part of the bill.
THE COURT: Very well.
BY MR. DYMOND:
Q: Now, Mr. Russo, say that you made the identification of the Oswald photograph
in New York as being the same as Leon Oswald, before the whiskers were put on? Is that right?
MR. ALCOCK: Objection, Your Honor. New York is not involved in this.
BY MR. DYMOND:
Q: In Baton Rouge?
A: Yes, sir, in Baton Rouge, yes.
Q: Is that correct?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: You say that, and do you also say that when you saw Lee Harvey Oswald's picture on television and in the newspapers after the assassination, you did not identify it as being Leon Oswald?
A: I told some of my friends that I think I had known that man.
Q: And is it your testimony that you sat in, or listened in, on a conspiratorial meeting with a man whom you saw represented in the paper and on television as the killer of President Kennedy, and didn't report it at that time to any law enforcement agent? Is that right?
A: No, I never said anything about a conspiracy; I didn't sit in on any conspiracies.
Q: Now with respect to your interview with Mr. Bankston up in Baton Rouge, is it your testimony that you didn't mention anything about this party or this meeting because he seemed to be interested only in Ferrie?
A: No, it wasn't totally interested in Ferrie, but he wasn't even interested in me initially until something came over the teletype about Dave Ferrie, and he was interested at that time, said, "Well, we will take a statement," and so for the next 30 or 40 minutes we sat there and talked.
Q: As a matter of fact, you called Bankston, he didn't call you?
A: I called the State Times; I don't know if I talked to him on the phone or not.
Q: You called his newspaper, is that correct?
A: Right.
Q: And you had your story to tell and you told it? Isn't that right?
A: That I knew Dave Ferrie, yes.
MR. DYMOND: That is all.