AFTERNOON SESSION
THE COURT: Let the record show that the Jury is back, Defendant is present, both counsel are present. Are the State and Defense ready to proceed?
MR. DYMOND: Yes, sir.
MR. ALCOCK: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Let it be noted that I have advised the witness that his previous oath is still binding.
BY MR. DYMOND:
Q: Mr. Russo, referring again to the Sciambra memorandum, the bottom of page 4 --
A: Bottom of what page?
Q: Page 4.
A: Thank you.
Q: Wherein appears this statement and it is about six lines from the bottom, "Russo said that he believes that Kershenstine, Kenny Carter, and maybe Niles Peterson, and Landry would know more about the roommate and be able to recognize him." Did you state that to Mr. Sciambra in Baton Rouge?
A: Essentially, yes.
Q: Now why did you believe or would you believe that these parties would know more about this roommate?
A: I didn't say no more than I did, they would know more about the roommate and be able to recognize him.
Q: Why would they know about the roommate?
A: What Andy said, Sciambra had asked me in Baton Rouge who I associated with and similar questions, whom I associated with, the names of the people that he might contact, things of that sort, and I told him that Kershenstine, Carter and for sure Al and Peterson.
Q: Did Niles Peterson ever go with you to Dave Ferrie's apartment when this roommate was there?
A: I think he did.
Q: You don't know?
A: I am not sure.
Q: What makes you think he did?
A: I, 'cause he was around me about that period of time.
Q: Was that the only reason you have, you have no specific recollection of his going there with you on the occasion when you saw this roommate?
A: No, but it is possible he was with me.
Q: That is just a possibility?
A: Right.
Q: And so on the preliminary hearing when you testified he definitely went inside the party with you --
A: I testified to that after the badgering. You forced me in that position and I said the people I associated with probably were Peterson and probably Moffett.
Q: By badgering you, you mean by asking you quite a number of times the same --
MR. ALCOCK: I object --
MR. DYMOND: If the Court please, he used the terminology, "badgering."
MR. ALCOCK: I am objecting to this area because we have been over and over this and it is highly repetitious.
MR. DYMOND; If the Court please, this is only the second time this is touched on.
THE COURT: I can't comment on it at all but you have covered the subject matter either yesterday afternoon and this morning and I see no reason to repeat it.
MR. DYMOND: This is the first time I have been accused of badgering a witness.
MR. ALCOCK: You used the word.
MR. DYMOND: He used it first.
THE COURT: Read the question and answer.
THE REPORTER: Question: "And so on the preliminary hearing when you testified he defi- nitely went inside the party with you --"
Answer: "I testified to that after the badgering. You forced me in that position and I said the people I associated with probably were Peterson and probably Moffett."
MR. ALCOCK: My objection is not badgering but repetitious. I can remember this is exactly where we ended yesterday's session where Mr. Russo was read back those portions of the preliminary hearing where he felt that Counsel had forced him to make a statement.
MR. DYMOND: At this time I am objecting to the word "badgering". I have been accused of badgering and I want to know what it means.
THE COURT: I think we all know what the word badgering means.
MR. DYMOND: What does it mean?
THE COURT: We can get the dictionary out. (To the witness) What do you mean by badgering?
THE WITNESS: I attempted to answer the question he had asked on two or three prior occasions when he had asked me who was there and I had said I didn't know, what do you mean and he said what do you mean you don't know and he said, rather I said I was with a bunch of friends again without trying to say who it was and finally he said was one of those friends Peterson and I said yes it was Peterson.
BY MR. DYMOND:
Q: Come on, Mr. Russo, didn't you state at the preliminary hearing "I can definitely say "Sandra Moffett was there and definitely Niles Peterson"?
A: Only after those questions, the questions I pointed out to you were asked.
Q: Then if somebody will ask you something enough times you will give them the answer they want?
MR. ALCOCK: I object as that is arguing with the witness.
THE COURT: That is arguing with the witness.
BY MR. DYMOND:
Q: Now do you remember then at any time when Kenny Carter went to David Ferrie's apartment with you when the roommate was there?
A: Not definitely, no.
Q: Do you remember at any time when Kershenstine went to the apartment with you when the roommate was there?
A: Not definitely, no.
Q: Do you remember at any time when Al Landry went to the apartment with you when the roommate was there?
A: No.
Q: So therefore there would be no material basis for that statement read to you that you gave to Mr. Sciambra?
A: Except these people were people I associated with and these people were - would probably remember so and so or such and such and might have run into one of the people. Sciambra asked me this in Baton Rouge.
Q: Would you tell us why you didn't give him Sandra Moffett's name whom you termed her as almost a constant companion?
MR. ALCOCK: I object as there is no evidence that he mentioned that about Sandra Moffett, or that he mentioned that to Andrew Sciambra --
MR. DYMOND: I will ask him that.
BY MR. DYMOND:
Q: Did you mention Sandra Moffett's name as a person who would know about the roommate?
A: During the conversation I termed Sandra Moffett as somebody who would probably know.
Q: That would be another error in the memorandum if that wasn't included in the wording.
A: Not essentially because this might be an omission and to this point it might not be there.
Q: What other names did you mention who might recognize the roommate?
A: I don't recall, I might have mentioned some others but I don't recall offhand.
Q: Did you testify that after President Kennedy was assassinated you remarked to several of your friends that you recognized the guy that did it?
A: Yes, I said -- I said I think I know that man or knew that man.
Q: Still after that you had to go through the routine of putting a beard on Lee Harvey Oswald before you identified the picture?
MR. ALCOCK: That is not the testimony in this record and Mr. Dymond knows it.
THE COURT: I can't comment as to what is or is not.
MR. DYMOND: I think it is the testimony.
MR. ALCOCK: It is not Your Honor.
THE WITNESS: I --
BY MR. DYMOND:
Q: Is it not a fact that they had to put a beard on --
THE COURT: Rephrase your question.
BY MR. DYMOND:
Q: Is it not a fact the police or Mr. Sciambra had to put a beard on the photograph of
Lee Harvey Oswald before you identified it as being the roommate?
A: In Baton Rouge I identified the photograph he pulled out, the one he had with him and except for the fact that the photograph he showed me in Baton Rouge did not have whiskers.
Q: Then he came back to New Orleans and had the beard drawn in on another photograph before you identified it?
A: Yes. It may have been the same photograph enlarged, I'm not sure.
Q: As a matter of fact you had seen Leon Oswald without a beard?
A: Only under the circumstances when he turned to the left or right, one or the other turned and I knew it was the same man.
Q: You said you were in his presence for five minutes then?
A: Yes, sir at the approximate most.
Q: Did you tell Mr. Sciambra you had never been hypnotized, Mr. Russo, actually?
A: Did I tell I had never been hypnotized?
Q: Yes.
A: You're talking about in Baton Rouge?
Q: That is right.
A: I don't know if we covered the subject except what is stated here and I made a correction to that extent. On page 7 he said, "He said that he had been hypnotized like this before and it had helped him to recall and that he would be glad to do it for us," and he was talking about me and I said no, that was not right that a couple of people had tried to hypnotize me, Dave Ferrie for one and another being Irwin Moreau.
Q: When other people tried did it make you remember things more vividly than before?
A: I don't think they hypnotized me.
Q: What made you remember things more vividly if you had not been hypnotized?
A: With the Moreau and Ferrie --
Q: Right.
A: I don't think they hypnotized me.
Q: I am reading to you from the first paragraph on the top of page 7, "He also said that if he were hypnotized he may have total recall on names and places and dates. He said that he had been hypnotized like this before and it had helped him to recall and that he would be glad to do it for us."
Do you deny telling Mr. Sciambra that?
A: I made a correction on that yesterday.
Q: You deny that?
A: I denied it yesterday.
Q: You deny that you suggested to Mr. Sciambra that you be hypnotized?
A: Do I deny what?
Q: That you suggested to Mr. Sciambra that you be hypnotized.
A: I suggested that was an avenue of approach, yes.
Q: Why did you say you wanted to be?
A: I didn't say I wanted to be.
Q: Why did you suggest it?
A: He was asking me for more names and dates and most of it was names, dates, where, the people and what conversation went on and things of that sort and I told him what I understood about hypnosis and that it induced recall and if they could get a professional in New Orleans or up there I would be glad to submit to it.
Q: How did you know that it produced recall?
A: I read on it and heard Ferrie talk about it.
Q: And as a matter of fact you were subsequently hypnotized by a representative of the District Attorney's office?
A: Right.
Q: How many times were you hypnotized, Mr. Russo?
A: I think three.
Q: Three times, when was the last time?
A: I don't recall.
Q: You don't remember the date?
A: No.
MR. DYMOND: May I have that Kemp transcript, the Kemp television transcript, it is the thicker of the two transcripts.
BY MR. DYMOND:
Q: Now, Mr. Russo, you have described this roommate as being a person not very talkative and who didn't have much to say to anybody, is that correct?
A: Right.
Q: As a matter of fact you told Mr. Sciambra the roommate never talked to anybody, is that right?
A: In Baton Rouge?
Q: Yes.
A: No, I don't think I told him that.
MR. ALCOCK: Your Honor, if Mr. Dymond is going to ask this witness a question or read portions of the interview, I would like to be given an opportunity to see that.
MR. DYMOND: I am about to read from the Kemp transcript.
MR. ALCOCK: We don't have a copy of it.
(Document exhibited to Counsel for the State.)
BY MR. DYMOND:
Q: I am reading a question and an answer from the transcript of your television interview with Mr. Jim Kemp, transcript of which has been introduced in evidence:
"Did you ever talk to any of the associates of Ferrie other than the fellow you knew, did you meet anybody else? Answer: He had a roommate on the street parallel with Louisiana Avenue and I don't know the name of the street, which one it is, it may be Louisiana Avenue Parkway, but anyway he had a roommate and I talked to him on several occasions but he was just stale as regards to politics it seemed to me. He talked about everything else." Would you explain to us why in one instance you said he never talked to any- body and another you said he talked about everything else but politics?
A: Essentially I talked about not much else than politics, that is true, that is he'd talk about everything else and wouldn't join in about politics and that was my particular interest at the time.
Q: And that is your explanation as to why you say on one instance he didn't talk to anybody and the other he talked about everything else?
A: He talked to people.
Q: And it was about everything else?
A: But I didn't consider him very talkative, no.
Q: Now, Mr. Russo, when did you first see this Sciambra memorandum?
A: Uh, I'm not real sure of that, I knew it was between, the latest was March 20 when Jim Phelan came up to Baton Rouge, but I probably seen it earlier.
Q: You had seen it before that?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you ever tell Mr. Sciambra that Ferrie used hypnosis for sexual purposes?
A: Did I?
Q: Or that Ferrie told you that.
A: No, Landry had told me that.
MR. ALCOCK: Your Honor, I am objecting to this line as repetitious.
MR. DYMOND: That particular question is answered already and it wasn't repetitious anyway.
MR. ALCOCK: I'm quite sure it was.
BY MR. DYMOND:
Q: Now, Mr. Russo, did you testify this morning that the color of the beard and the hair on this roommate were about the same?
A: Well --
THE COURT: Let me call attention to Article 369 of the Code of Procedure which states: "In the discipline of his court, the trial judge is vested with a sound discretion to stop the prolonged, unnecessary and irrelevant examination of a witness, whether such examination be Direct or Cross and even though no objection be urged by Counsel."
One of the footnotes states: "The Judge may stop Counsel from indefinitely prolonging a cross-examination by repeatedly going over the same matter." State v. Kuntz (Spelled phonetically.) The Trial Judge may rule out the useless repetition of evidence, and the State's objection is covered by this matter.
MR. DYMOND: I haven't covered this particular point.
BY MR. DYMOND:
Q: Did you testify this morning that the beard and the hair on this roommate were approximately of the same color?
A: No.
Q: What was your testimony in that respect?
A: I stated there was a difference.
Q: Which was darker?
A: I'm not sure.
MR. ALCOCK: Your Honor, if this isn't repetitious, Mr. Dymond is asking him what his testimony was this morning and obviously we have gone over that and it is obviously repetitious.
THE COURT: I agree with you if he said he testified to this morning.
MR. DYMOND: The last question was never testified to this morning and the last one has been answered already anyway.
BY MR. DYMOND:
Q: Do you deny that you told Mr. Sciambra in Baton Rouge that the beard was a little darker than his hair?
A: I don't deny or affirm it. I'm not sure exactly what I told him in Baton Rouge about the difference except there was a difference.
Q: Would there be any reason for you to have known then and not now?
A: I have a feeling the, it was darker, rather the beard was lighter but I'm not sure right now.
Q: You say you have a feeling the beard was lighter?
A: Yes.
Q: What I'm asking you is whether you told Mr. Sciambra in Baton Rouge that the beard was darker?
A: That the beard was darker?
Q: That is correct.
A: I don't know.
Q: Oh, there is one other point I want to clarify and that is with respect to the clothing, and particularly the jacket, which you stated that Mr. Shaw had worn at the National Street Wharf. Would you be a little more explicit in your description of that?
A: Well, I think the jacket was some sort of striped jacket or something to that effect, I'm not real sure of the pants except they were dark.
Q: Could you tell us what color the jacket was?
A: No, I saw a stripe or line in it.
Q: Could you tell us whether it was light or dark in color?
A: No, I am not sure.
Q: Mr. Russo, did you say that this roommate was present in David Ferrie's apartment in the month of October 1963?
A: Did I say he was present?
Q: Right.
A: I am not sure exactly when -- You mean the last time I saw him?
Q: That is correct.
A: I'm not sure exactly when I first, I am first inclined to think October and in fact I think I testified to that fact in the preliminary hearing -- I'm not sure whether it was October or late September but my original recollection was I thought I saw him in September and then I thought possibly I saw him in October.
Q: I am reading to you from page 196 and 197 of the transcript of the preliminary hearing: "Question -- I am talking about the one at the end of September or October as you stated in the month before the Kennedy assassination.
"Answer I don't really recall.
"Question -- When would you say was the last time before the assassination that you saw Oswald?
"Answer -- Somewhere around the beginning of October, maybe late September, beginning of October.
"Question -- The beginning of October?
"Answer -- Yes, sir.
"Question -- You are sure about that?
"Answer -- I am putting it in context with other things, yes."
Now would you tell me why on the preliminary hearing you stated that Oswald was here in Ferrie's apartment in October and you say now you cannot say?
A: I am saying late September, early October, the initial recollection was that it was September. I felt a little different about it because of classes and I felt it was October when I last saw him and it was one or the other. I am inclined to say just exactly when the last time was. As I said I stated at the preliminary hearing I thought it was October or late September.
Q: Mr. Russo, since the preliminary hearing haven't you learned that Oswald left New Orleans never to return on September 25 and that is the reason you are not saying October now?
A: During the preliminary hearing you mentioned it was September 25.
MR. ALCOCK: I object because it is assuming a fact not in evidence.
MR. DYMOND: If the Court please, I can ask him whether something is a reason for his having changed his testimony.
[page missing]
Q. . . . now that he was here in October?
A: No.
Q: That isn't it? Is that right?
A: That's right.
Q: I am reading to you from your preliminary hearing testimony on page 202 of the transcript: "Question -- You still say it was in October that you heard this second threat from Ferrie?
"Answer -- I heard, yes, sir.
"Question -- And that Oswald was present, is that right?
"Answer -- At one of the times, yes.
"Question -- In October, is that right?
"Answer -- I would say in October, yes, sir."
MR. ALCOCK: I object, Your Honor, as I think the witness has already answered that question.
MR. DYMOND: It is on a different portion of the testimony and I was going to ask him whether his explanation to this discrepancy would be the same as to the previous one.
THE COURT: I will permit it.
Q: In you explanation for this discrepancy the same as the other?
A: If you will phrase the question.
Q: Phrase what question?
THE COURT: Rephrase the question.
THE WITNESS: Rephrase it as you did before and I will answer that.
BY MR. DYMOND:
Q: Do you deny having testified as I read to you from page 202 of the transcript in the
preliminary hearing?
A: Do I deny having testified to that?
Q: Yes, that is correct.
A: No.
Q: And you say now you cannot say that Oswald was here in October?
A: That is not the same question you had asked. I am saying it was either late September of early October.
Q: What I'm asking you is why you are changing your testimony?
A: I said late September or early October.
Q: Why are you changing your testimony now from that which you gave at the preliminary hearing?
A: I don't think I am essentially.
Q: You care for me to read it again?
A: No, I understand exactly what you read and I say the same thing now, late September or early October.
Q: Permit me -- "You still say it was in October you heard this second threat from Ferrie?
"Answer -- I heard, yes, sir.
"Question -- And that Oswald was present, is that right?
"Answer -- At one of the times, yes.
"Question -- In October, is that right?
"Answer -- I would say in October, yes, sir."
Does that say that Oswald was here in October?
A: Late September, early October, essentially the same, yes.
Q: What just says late September?
A: What you just read said late September or early October and if that says October, I'm not arguing with you.
Q: I exhibit to you page 202 of your testimony at the preliminary hearing pointing out to you where -- I'm pointing from there and ask you to read that page.
A: Can I read a little bit before?
Q: I read you from page 202.
A: Not here, late September.
Q: You did say it was in October?
A: Before and after I said late September and early October which is essentially the same thing as I am saying right now.
Q: Mr. Russo, were you living here in New Orleans when David Ferrie was arrested right after the assassination?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Did you see it in the paper?
A: The assassination or the arrest?
Q: The arrest of David Ferrie?
A: No.
Q: Did you know he was arrested?
A: No, I didn't know it.
Q: When did you first find out about that?
A: Probably right around the first week I was down here in New Orleans from Baton Rouge, '67, 1967.
Q: In other words Dave Ferrie was arrested right after the assassination and you didn't find out about it until 1967?
A: Right.
Q: And that is the same Dave Ferrie that was a close friend of yours and he had an open invitation to your home and you had an open invitation to his?
A: Yes.
MR. ALCOCK: That was a question?
MR. DYMOND: Yes.