CRIMINAL DISTRICT COURT
PARISH OF ORLEANS
STATE OF LOUISIANA
STATE OF LOUISIANA vs. CLAY L. SHAW
198-059
1426 (30)
SECTION "C"
EXCERPT OF THE TESTIMONY TAKEN IN OPEN COURT
February 22, 1969
B E F O R E: THE HONORABLE EDWARD A.
HAGGERTY, JR., JUDGE, SECTION "C"
MRS. RUTH HYDE PAINE, a witness called by and on behalf of the Defense, having been first duly affirmed, was examined and testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. DYMOND:
Q: For the record, Mrs. Paine, would you please state your full name.
A: I am Ruth Hyde Paine.
Q: Now, Mrs. Paine, where do you reside?
A: I live in Irving, Texas.
Q: And is that a suburb of Dallas?
A: Yes, it is.
Q: Approximately how far out of Dallas is it?
A: Measured in minutes, about a half hour.
Q: About a half hour?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, what is your occupation, Mrs. Paine?
A: I teach kindergarten.
Q: And how long have you been teaching kindergarten?
A: This is my third year.
Q: Mrs. Paine, were you acquainted with the late Lee Harvey Oswald and his wife, Marina Oswald?
A: Yes, I was.
Q: Would you please give us a history of your acquaintance with these people.
A: I met them both in February of 1963 at a gathering of friends in Dallas, and I saw Marina particularly but both of them occasionally through the spring of 1963, and then in May Lee went to New Orleans to look for work and I -- well, I came for a visit and discovered that he was all packed up to go to New Orleans and was going to leave her at the apartment while he looked for work, and I suggested that she might stay at my home in that interim.
Q: I see. Well, did she stay at your home after he left?
A: That is right.
Q: And how long did she stay there at your home with Lee living in New Orleans?
A: I suppose it was about a week.
Q: I see.
A: I could check it if you like.
Q: And then after that did she leave your home in Dallas?
A: I took her to New Orleans.
Q: I see. And where did you take her when you got here to New Orleans?
A: We went to an address Lee had given us, which was his aunt and uncle I believe, the Murret home, and then from there we went to an apartment on Magazine Street that he had rented.
Q: Would that have been 4905 Magazine Street?
A: I thought it was 07, but that would be --
Q: If you don't know, that is all right. There has been some dispute on that. Now, when you took her to this address on magazine Street, who did you find there?
A: There was no one there. Lee was at his uncle's house.
Q: He was what?
A: He was at the uncle's house.
Q: I see.
A: And we went together in two cars to the apartment.
Q: So the three of you went to Magazine Street, is that correct?
A: I believe the uncle -- you must understand, I am three by myself, it was myself and my two children, and Marina and her young baby and Lee, and I think the uncle or maybe another member of the family went.
Q: I see. Now, how long did you stay here in New Orleans upon that occasion?
A: It was really just over the weekend.
Q: Over the weekend?
A: Possibly the next Monday.
Q: And after the weekend passed, what did you do?
A: I returned to Irving with my children.
Q: And you left them here, you would say? Is that right?
A: I left the Oswalds here, yes.
Q: Now, when was the next time that you saw either of these persons, Mrs. Paine?
A: It was in September the same year. I did not see either over the summer, and I corresponded with Marina, and then I traveled, drove to the East to visit friends and relatives and came back to Texas via New Orleans, and it was in late September, and I have it on my calendar but I didn't bring the calendar with me that describes when I arrived. It is part of the Commission's exhibits, if that would be helpful.
Q: I see.
Do you have a volume containing that Commission exhibit with you?
A: Yes.
Q: Are you able to locate your calendar in there?
A: I think so. (Referring to volume) Yes, here it is.
Q: What is that exhibit number, Mrs. Paine?
A: 401.
Q: Now, does that refresh your memory upon examining that exhibit?
A: Well, it has a notation.
MR. ALCOCK: Your Honor, the witness may not read from the exhibit but merely use it to refresh here memory. If her memory is refreshed from that exhibit, then she may testify.
THE COURT: You are correct. You may not read from the book, just look at it, and if it refreshes your memory you may testify as to what you think it is or what it is.
THE WITNESS: I see.
BY MR. DYMOND:
Q: Can you tell us now, Mrs. Paine, when you arrived in New Orleans in September?
A: My recollection is that I arrived on Friday, the 20th of September.
Q: The 20th?
A: And left the following Monday, the 23rd.
Q: I see.
A: I didn't arrive home until sometime the next day, on the 24th.
Q: Now, when you arrived here in New Orleans on September 20, 1963, where did you go?
A: I went directly to the apartment on Magazine Street.
Q: And where did you stay during the interim between September 20 and September 23rd when you say that you left?
A: I stayed at the Oswald's apartment.
Q: I see. Now, at that time was Lee Harvey Oswald living there?
A: Pardon? Was he living there?
Q: Yes.
A: Yes, he was. He was in evidence most of the time.
Q: You say he was in evidence most of the time?
A: Yes. He was there.
Q: Do you know of any night during that period that he did not spend at home?
A: No. He was there. Q: How about during the daytime?
A: He was there most of the day. Q: Now, I take it then that you have known Lee Harvey Oswald since May of '63, is that correct?
A: Well, I met him first in February and saw him just briefly on occasions in the spring. Q: Now, during the time that you knew Lee Harvey Oswald, did you have occasion to observe his general appearance, Mrs. Paine?
A: Yes.
Q: Would you term his appearance sloppy or dirty, or neat and clean?
A: he usually dressed informally, he was very neat and -- I think he liked showers -- he was clean. He usually wore a T-shirt and slacks around my home when he came on weekends in the fall of '63.
Q: Now, how about when he was here in New Orleans 9 in 1963?
A: To the best of my recollection, he wore slacks and T-shirt. He was very neat.
Q: Do you know who did his laundry?
A: Yes. Marina did. I recall going out to a washateria with Lee while we were here in New Orleans, and I --
Q: Did you ever know Lee Harvey Oswald to wear a beard when you knew him, Mrs. Paine?
A: No, no.
Q: Did you ever --
A: I never saw him with a beard.
Q: Did you ever see him obviously in need of a shave?
A: No, I didn't.
MR. DYMOND: May I have the photograph of Lee Harvey Oswald?
(Photographs handed to Counsel.)
BY MR. DYMOND:
Q: (Exhibiting photograph to witness) Mrs. Paine, I show you a photograph which has been marked for identification "State 1," purporting to be a photograph of Lee Harvey Oswald, and I ask you whether you recognize it as such?
A: Yes, I do.
Q: (Exhibiting photograph to witness) I now show you another photograph marked for identification "State 19," which purports to be a photograph of Lee Harvey Oswald with a beard drawn in, appearing to be drawn in pencil, and I ask you whether you ever remember or recollect having seen him in any condition similar to this with respect to a beard?
A: No, I never saw him with a beard.
Q: (Exhibiting photograph to witness) I now show you a photograph which has been marked for identification "State 10," purporting to be a photograph of David W. Ferrie, and I ask you whether, to the best of your knowledge, you have ever seen that individual in your life, and more particularly at the residence of Lee Harvey Oswald?
A: This face is not familiar to me. To my best recollection, I have never seen it, and I did not, of course, see it at his apartment.
Q: Now prior to the publicity surrounding the charging of Mr. Clay Shaw, to your knowledge had you ever heard the name David W. Ferrie?
A: I had not.
Q: -- or Dave Ferrie?
A: No.
Q: Had you ever heard the name Perry Raymond Russo, or Perry Russo?
A: No, I had not.
Q: Had you ever heard of the name Clem Bertrand or Clay Bertrand?
A: No, I had not.
Q: Had you ever heard of the name Clem Bertrand or Clay Bertrand?
A: No, I never did. I never heard him make reference to anyone he knew.
Q: Now, Mrs. Paine, while you knew Lee Harvey Oswald, was he able to drive an automobile?
A: Well, I can describe my attempts to teach him, which might answer your question.
Q: Well, tell us first when these attempts took place.
A: These were in October of '63.
Q: Where?
A: In Irving, Texas.
Q: Well, please do describe your attempts to teach him.
A: We went one Sunday afternoon to an empty parking lot, and I tried -- well, he, in other words, took the wheel and could handle the car enough to start it, but he was very awkward about turning a right-angle turn. As most beginners do, he kept the wheel cramped too long, so then he had to recover and straighten out, and that was just in turning corners. He also -- we did try to park once and he just couldn't do it at all.
Q: I see.
A: It was clear to me that while he was eager to learn, he had not had experience behind a wheel handling a vehicle.
Q: And this was in October of '63?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, Mrs. Paine, do you remember where you were at the time of the assassination of President Kennedy?
A: Yes.
Q: Where were you?
A: In my living room.
Q: Were you by yourself or with someone?
A: No, Marina and I were sitting on the sofa watching TV.
Q: Did you actually see the assassination on TV?
A: No, it wasn't covered. They were describing -- I mean there was no picture -- they were describing the motorcade but there was not a picture of it.
Q: And how did you learn that the President had been assassinated?
A: Well, first there was a report that he had been --
MR. ALCOCK:
Object as hearsay. She can say how she learned it without going into the particulars of what was said or --
MR. DYMOND: Don't say actually what the report said but just tell us how you learned it.
THE COURT: Either by TV or radio, or by telephone or a neighbor. In other words, how did you get the information?
THE WITNESS: On the television.
THE COURT: On the television.
BY MR. DYMOND:
Q: And where was this television located?
A: In the living room of my home.
Q: That is in Irving, Texas?
A: Yes.
Q: And you say Marina Oswald was with you, is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, at that time did you own an automobile, Mrs. Paine?
A: Yes.
Q: What kind of automobile was it?
A: A Chevrolet Station Wagon.
Q: Did it have a rack on top of it?
A: No, not at that time. When I was driving East it had a portable one, or when I came back from the East it had one which I took off when we came back.
Q: I see. Now, at the time of the assassination where was your automobile, Mrs. Paine?
A: In the driveway in front of my home.
Q: Did you at any time on November 1963 lend your automobile to anyone?
A: No.
Q: More particularly, did you lend it to a rough looking, heavy Latin-type man?
A: No.
Q: Now, Mrs. Paine, did you have anything to do with Lee Harvey Oswald obtaining employment at the Texas School Book Depository?
A: Yes, indirectly. He had been looking for work for more than a week and hadn't had any luck -- I guess it had been one full week that he had been looking and had been out to my house again for a weekend and was pretty discouraged, and it was the following morning that Marina and I were having coffee with the neighbor next door to my house, and another neighbor came in and we were talking about his problem finding work. He didn't drive and this limited him very much in the kind of work he could apply for. He couldn't get a delivery job, he couldn't even get to most jobs because transportation, public transportation, is very poor in Texas -- there isn't any in Irving at all -- and Mrs. Randle --
MR. ALCOCK: Your Honor, I am going to ask the Court to caution this witness not to say anything that was said at this particular time unless she personally said it.
BY MR. DYMOND: Q: That is correct, Mrs. Paine. If someone else said something and you did anything as a result of something that was said, you may say what you did --
A: Oh.
Q: -- but don't say what anyone else told you at that time. As a result of the conversation that you had on that day, did you do anything?
A: Yes.
Q: What did you do?
A: I telephoned the Texas School Book Depository and asked whether they were employing at this time, whether they did have an opening.
Q: To your knowledge, was any appointment made?
A: Appointment?
No. You have got me confused on how to describe what the man said without saying what he said.
(Laughter in the courtroom.)
THE BAILIFF: Order! Order!
MR. DYMOND: You can't very well do that.
MR. ALCOCK: That is hearsay.
THE WITNESS: I heard him say it.
BY MR. DYMOND:
Q: To your knowledge, as a result of your conversation, did Lee Harvey Oswald do anything?
A: Yes. I understood -- well, how can I say this? Can I say I did not get a clear understanding that they were or were not hiring?
Q: Well, let me ask you, as a result of your having this conversation did Lee Harvey Oswald finally do anything?
A: He applied the next day --
Q: I see.
A: -- to the Texas School Book Depository for a job, and did receive a job and telephoned us about noon that following day, a Tuesday, to say that he was to report to work the next day.
Q: I see. Now, to whom did you speak at the Texas School Book Depository when you called there?
A: Mr. Roy Truly.
Q: At the time that you made this call to Mr. Roy Truly at the Texas School Book Depository, did Lee Harvey Oswald have any way of knowing that you were making this call?
A: No, none.
Q: Did he ever ask you to make such a call?
A: No.
Q: Now, did you ever see Lee Harvey Oswald in possession of a gun or rifle, Mrs. Paine?
A: No, I didn't, I didn't know he had a gun.
Q: Did you now of any gun or rifle that he had stored in the garage or carport of your home in Dallas, in Irving?
A: No, I did not, not until the afternoon after the assassination.
Q: Did you ever see any guns stored on your premises?
A: No, nor would I have wanted it there had I known. We had very young children, I wouldn't have wanted a gun on the premises at all.
Q: I see. Mrs. Paine, had you ever before seen this Defendant, Mr. Clay Shaw, before today out here at court?
A: Not before today.
Q: Did you ever hear Lee Harvey Oswald mention any of these names: Clay Shaw, Clay Bertrand, or Clem Bertrand?
A: No, I did not.
Q: During the time that you were at the Oswald home on Magazine Street, did they have any visitors?
A: There was a visitor that I arranged to have come, and I can't recall -- I imagine it was during that weekend that she came.
Q: A visitor that you arranged to have come?
A: Yes.
Q: Other than that, were there any visitors?
A: No.
MR. DYMOND: We tender the witness.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ALCOCK:
Q: Mrs. Paine, after you drove Marina back to Dallas, Texas from new Orleans in September 1963 did Lee reside with you and Marina at your home?
A: Well, you must understand that she and I our children came back ourselves, and I understood that Lee was going to be looking for work. We left him here in New Orleans. I next saw him on the 4th of October. We arrived back -- what? -- the 24th of September.
Q: And did he take up residence in your home at that time?
A: No, he did not, he spent the weekend and went in Monday to -- the 4th of October was a Friday, and then he went in Monday to look for work, and he also got a place to live.
Q: Did you know where that place was?
A: No, I did not. Sometime later he left a telephone number with me, which is what I did have. His wife of course was expecting a child at the time, and he indicated he could be reached at this number if she went into labor.
Q: And do you know whether or not she made an attempt to locate him at that number any time from your home?
A: She did once, yes.
Q: And do you know whether or not she was successful in locating him at that number?
A: She asked me to dial the number, and I did and asked for Lee Oswald, and someone answered saying he didn't know anyone of that name, and I asked was this number such and such, he said yes, it was, and was it a rooming house, he said yes, it was, so at that point I didn't know what to do and just thanked him and hung up.
Q: Were you ever informed as to why you were unsuccessful in that attempt to locate him at that number, by Lee Oswald?
(The witness laughed and there was general laughter in the courtroom.)
MR. DYMOND: Object on the ground of hearsay.
THE COURT: Did you say by Lee Oswald?
MR. DYMOND: By Lee Oswald?
MR. ALCOCK: That is exactly what I said, Mr. Dymond.
THE COURT: Repeat the question.
BY MR. ALCOCK:
Q: Were you ever informed as to why you could not locate Lee Oswald at that number, by Lee Oswald?
A: Nope.
Q: Did you ever hear him --
A: His wife informed me.
Q: His wife informed you. Was he present?
A: No.
Q: Now, Mrs. Paine, did Lee Oswald come to your home generally on weekends from his apartment in Dallas?
A: That is correct.
Q: Do you recall whether or not he left your home for any appreciable length of time on any of these weekends?
A: No, he did not.
Q: Do you recall his leaving your home at all on any of these weekends?
A: Except as he went with me in my car, he didn't leave.
Q: I see. Do you recall his ever leaving home on any of these weekends with a package approximately three feet long?
A: No. Perhaps it would be important to say we aren't near anything and there is no public transportation in Irving.
Q: Mrs. Paine, do you know whether or not as a matter of fact there was any rifle range close to your home where a person might practice using a rifle?
A: I know of none.
Q: I think you said Lee could not drive, is that correct, to your knowledge?
A: I suppose he could have handled the car if he had to, but he very green.
Q: Now, did Lee Oswald come to your home on the weekend immediately preceding the assassination?
A: No, he did not.
Q: Was that unusual?
A: Yes. Marina asked him not to.
Q: Now, did he come to your home at any time in the following week?
A: Yes.
Q: What day?
A: Thursday.
Q: Do you recall approximately what time he arrived?
A: I was out grocery shopping and I arrived back from grocery shopping somewhere between -- it was a little after 5:30, I would judge, and he was on the lawn, so, in other words, he arrived sometime before that and he and Marina were talking on the lawn, and then he helped pick up a bag of groceries and helped carry them in, and I was carrying a bag.
Q: Did you see him rather regularly on that night, if you can recall?
A: Well, we had dinner together as usual. Then, as best I can recall, he retired to his room at 8:30 or 9:00 or something, to the room where Marina and the babies were sleeping -- were living I should say -- and I worked a short time in the garage that evening. I noticed the light had been left on, which I was pretty sure I hadn't left it on. I was painting some things, but I finished fairly early and went to bed myself.
Q: I take it then that you retired after the Oswalds retired that night? Is that correct?
A: I don't know if he went to sleep.
Q: No, but retired?
A: But he was already in the room where he slept.
Q: Do you now whether or not Marina retired after Lee Oswald retired that night?
A: I think she was probably the last to go to bed that night.
Q: I see. Where was this light that you mentioned in the garage? Was it a wall light hanging down?
A: Yes, exactly.
Q: And where is the switch?
A: The switch is on the wall inside the garage.
Q: Is there any access to your garage, Mrs. Paine, from inside the home?
A: Oh, yes.
Q: Where would that be, from what room?
A: From -- it is a den-dining area.
Q: Is there any access into your garage from outside of the home?
A: From the garage door, but it was locked to the best of my recollection. We did not park the car in it.
Q: I didn't hear you.
A: We did not use the garage for the car.
Q: You used it more for storage?
A: Right.
Q: Do you know whether or not Lee Oswald had a key to this lock?
A: I would be certain he didn't.
Q: He didn't?
Approximately what time did you go to the garage and notice this light on that you had not seen earlier?
A: I would guess it to be around 9:00 o'clock in the evening.
Q: Would this have been prior to the retirement of Lee to his room, or after the retirement of Lee to his room?
A: To the best of my recollection, he was -- had already gone to the room.
Q: Now, had you purchased any curtain rods for Lee Oswald on that day or any day?
A: No.
Q: Had he asked you at any time to purchase any curtain rods?
A: No.
Q: On that night, more specifically the night of November 21, a Thursday night, did you see any curtain rods in Lee's possession at any time?
A: No.
Q: Did you hear him ask his wife about any curtain rods on that night?
A: No.
Q: Did you see any curtain rods in her possession at any time on that night?
A: No.
Q: Did you see any curtain rods in his possession at that time?
A: No.
Q: To your knowledge, were there any curtain rods in the garage?
A: Yes, there were some.
Q: Were they yours or the Oswald's?
A: They were mine.
Q: Did he ask you to use these curtain rods at any time?
A: No. I doubt he knew they were there.
Q: Were the Oswald's belongings more or less over to one corner of the garage?
A: More or less.
Q: Do you recall whether or not any of these belongings were wrapped in a blanket?
A: Yes, there was a blanket on the floor.
Q: On the floor?
A: When I recall seeing the blanket, it was on the floor.
Q: And when was that that you saw the blanket on the floor?
A: It was Friday afternoon, November 22.
Q: And what was your occasion for going to the garage at that time?
A: Well, officers had arrived and said they had Lee Oswald in custody for shooting an officer, and asked if they could come in, and --
Q: Let me caution you this is hearsay you are going into, what these officers said.
A: Shall I describe what they did?
Q: Yes.
A: O.K. They came in, and I indicated that most of the Oswald's possessions were either in the bedroom or in the garage, and we went into the garage, and a question arose as to whether Oswald had had a weapon of any sort. Foolishly I said no, but I then translated the question to Marina, and she said she knew him to have a rifle and indicated the blanket roll on the floor, and then I translated what she indicated to me, and the officer picked up the roll in the middle and hung it over his arm.
Q: Was there anything in the blanket roll?
A: It looked pretty empty. He did not open it.
Q: Do you recall, Mrs. Paine, having viewed that particular blanket roll on the night before?
A: No, I don't.
Q: Do you recall having seen that blanket roll in your garage at any time after you brought Marina, that is, back from New Orleans?
A: I don't have a specific recollection of that.
Q: Mrs. Paine, do you recall who unloaded your station wagon after you returned from New Orleans to Irving with Marina in September?
A: Yes. Some of the things that were in it I took off or out -- both -- of the station wagon, and there were a couple of large Marine duffels which were very heavy, and we waited until my husband, Michael Paine, came and asked him to move those.
Q: And were these all generally placed in the garage area that you have referred to in your testimony?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you ever have occasion to ascertain what all of the various packages may or may not have contained?
A: No, never.
Q: Do you recall, Mrs. Paine, who loaded the station wagon up here in New Orleans? That would have been the weekend of the 20th through the 23rd of September.
A: Yes. Of course, there were a lot of things already in it that were mine, but Lee packed their things and then loaded them also into the station wagon before we left.
Q: Do you recall doing any of the loading at all of the Oswald goods?
A: No.
Q: Now, Mrs. Paine, did you have occasion to drive Lee Oswald to the bus in April of when he was on his way to New Orleans?
A: It would help me to look at the calendar to see if it was April. Q: Certainly. Go right ahead.
A: (Referring to volume) Yes. There is apparently --
Q: Again, I must caution you not to read it but merely refer to it, and if it refreshes your memory --
A: O.K.
Q: -- testify from your memory being refreshed.
A: I can, certainly. I guess it was toward the end of April, and I recall coming for an appointment just to visit with Marina, and they were all packed and Lee asked if I could take him to the bus station carrying the things. He was especially concerned about getting the stuff to the bus station, and I did carry him and the stuff and Marina down to the bus station, and, as I recall, he bought a ticket for himself and for her, but I suggested that when he called and said he had work I would drive her down.
Q: Were you under the impression at that time that Marina was going to accompany Lee in April when you took them to the bus station?
A: No. The arrangement they had planned was for her to stay back in the apartment, and it was only modified for her to stay back with me.
Q: But he had purchased a ticket for Marina?
A: He had purchased a ticket for her to follow.
Q: I see. Do you recall how many bags he took with him on this occasion?
A: No, I don't.
Q: Do you recall whether it was more than one?
A: Oh, more than one, yes. It was certainly more than he could have comfortably carried by himself.
Q: I see. Do you feel it might have been more than two?
A: Yes.
Q: More than three?
A: I would guess so, three or four, something like that, bulky, not just suitcases but --
Q: Duffel bags?
A: I think so, but my real recollection is of the return trip rather than what he had that day.
Q: Now, you have stated that you had met Lee and Marina in February of 1963, is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Would it be a fair statement to say that during the period that Lee remained in Dallas, that you saw Marina more than you saw Lee?
A: Yes, that is correct.
Q: Could you approximate for us how many times you may have seen Lee during that period? That would have been from February to whenever you took him to the bus station in April.
A: I would guess two or three times.
Q: Approximately how long did you see him on those occasions?
A: One time was at an afternoon picnic, and another time was an evening dinner at my home. Michael Paine went to pick them both up and bring them to our house. That is all I recall.
Q: Did you find Lee Oswald a talkative person?
A: No, I did not.
Q: To your knowledge, did Lee Oswald like to read?
A: Yes, I believe so. He did not read much at my house, however; he watched television.
Q: Now, again referring to the month of November 1963, of your own knowledge, do you know whether or not any FBI Agents came to your home seeking the whereabouts of Lee Oswald?
A: Yes, they did.
Q: Do you recall on what date or dates this may have occurred?
A: It was early in the month. I think one -- the second time was a Friday, probably the 5th, but I am not sure.
Q: You can refer to your calendar if that will refresh your memory.
A: O.K. (Referring to volume) Well, it looks like it might have been Friday, the 1st of November or the 8th.There is no notation indicated, it just says what Friday was.
Q: Well, is it your recollection that it was on more than one occasion or merely one occasion?
A: There was more than one occasion. The first occasion two men came, and the second occasion I recall only one.
Q: And this is in the month of November 1963?
A: The second occasion certainly was.
Q: Was this occasion of November 1963 where one agent came or two agents?
A: The second occasion was the one agent. Is that what you are asking?
Q: Yes. Did you have occasion to tell this agent anything?
A: Yes. He asked if I knew --
Q: You can't say what he asked, just what you told him.
A: All right. I told him that Lee Oswald was working at the School Book Depository. I was unable to tell him where Lee Oswald might be living because I didn't know. It didn't occur to me that I had a telephone number that might -- it didn't tell me where he lived -- would have been able to tell the agent where he lived. I did mention that I thought Lee was worried about losing his job and that I hoped he would be discreet in approaching him on the job, and he said he would be. Oops!
(Laughter in the courtroom.)
Q: Mrs. Paine, have you ever heard of the name of O. H. Lee?
A: Well, since the -- O. H. Lee -- well, since the assassination.
Q: Have you ever heard of A. J. Hidell?
A: Since the assassination.
Q: I take it then that prior to the assassination you had never heard of these names, is that right?
A: That is right.
Q: Now, Mrs. Paine, when you came to the city of New Orleans on September 20, 1963, can you approximate for us what time of day or night you arrived?
A: Yes, sir, it was late afternoon.
Q: And you were here in the late afternoon of the 20th? Is that correct?
A: That is right. That is my best recollection.
Q: What do you call late afternoon?
A: Five-thirty, around that time.
Q: And approximately what time did you leave on the 23rd?
A: Well, it was morning; I would judge it would be somewhat after 9:00.
Q: After 9:00 a.m.?
A: It might have been earlier, but it is hard to get three babies and two mothers started earlier. I recall we had trouble with a slightly low tire, too, that delayed us.
Q: Now, Mrs. Paine, did you have occasion to have a conversation with Lee on that weekend as to where he was going, if any place?
A: Yes.
Q: And where did he tell you he was going?
A: He said he might try to look for work in Houston or possibly Philadelphia, is what I recall.
Q: He mentioned the word "Houston," the city of Houston, or Philadelphia?
A: I think so.
Q: Did he mention Mexico at all?
A: No, he did not.
Q: Now, Mrs. Paine, except for the three times that you saw Lee Oswald -- approximately three times; I realize that is an approximation -- when you first met Lee in February of 1963, and the times that you saw him on the two weekends, the one being in May, 1963, and the other being in September, 1963 -- may I take it you had no occasion to see him at all other than those occasions?
A: In between is that?
Q: In between, yes.
A: No, no.
Q: In other words, you didn't see him in the summer of 1963?
A: No.
Q: You didn't see him in August, the early part or middle part, or September of 1963?
A: No, I did not.
Q: And I think you have testified Lee never told you anybody he was acquainted with? Is that also correct?
A: That is my recollection. Marina discussed some people they knew in common, but as to friends of his, I don't recall his talking about them.
MR. ALCOCK: I tender the witness.
MR. DYMOND: I have a couple of questions.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. DYMOND:
Q: Mrs. Paine, you have testified that you next saw Lee Harvey Oswald after your leaving here in September, on October 4 in Dallas?
A: Yes.
Q: Is there anything particular which fixes that date in your mind?
A: Yes, there is. I recall that Marina -- well, he telephoned to the house to see if it would be possible for me to pick him up in Dallas, and Marina, who answered and talked with him, indicated that I could not because I had just been to Parkland Hospital and donated a pint of blood on her behalf -- this was done prior to her admittance for the birth of their next child -- and she indicated he would have to find his own way out. And I still have the card from -- a notation of having given blood that day. That fixes it in my memory, and I carried it in my wallet.
Q: I see.
A: It gives my blood type.
Q: Now, do you know where Lee Harvey Oswald was when he called on October 4?
A: Well, I assume he was in Dallas. That is what Marina indicated.
Q: You didn't know any more specifically than that where he was in Dallas?
A: No.
Q: Now, Mrs. Paine, do you know why the FBI Agents were coming to your home to talk to Lee Oswald?
MR. ALCOCK: Well, now, Your Honor, the only way she could know that is to delve into hearsay, what the agents might or might not have said.
MR. DYMOND: If the Court please, Lee Oswald could have told her, and he is one of the named alleged co-conspirators here.
THE COURT: Let me make an inquiry. Did you at any time ever discuss the visit of these agents, either the first or the second, with Lee Harvey Oswald, and, if so, did he tell you why they were checking? First -- let's make it in two parts -- did you ever discuss with Lee Harvey Oswald --
THE WITNESS: I gave him the agent's name and suggested that he go ahead and contact the agent.
THE COURT: That is as far as it went?
THE WITNESS: There was no discussion as to why they might want to talk to him.
BY MR. DYMOND:
Q: Did Lee Harvey Oswald ever tell you why these agents wanted to talk to him?
A: No, I didn't hear him discuss that.
Q: Now, Mrs. Paine, did you at any time ever see Lee Harvey Oswald with a gun or rifle?
A: No, I did not.
MR. DYMOND: That is all.
MR. ALCOCK: No further questions.
THE COURT: Is Mrs. Paine excused from the obligations of the subpoena?
MR. DYMOND: Yes, Judge.
THE COURT: And by the State?
MR. ALCOCK: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Mrs. Paine, you are excused from the obligations of your subpoena. You may leave. (Witness excused.)