CRIMINAL DISTRICT COURT
PARISH OF ORLEANS
STATE OF LOUISIANA
STATE OF LOUISIANA vs. CLAY L. SHAW
198-059
1426 (30)
SECTION "C"
EXCERPT OF THE TESTIMONY TAKEN IN OPEN COURT
February 17, 1969
B E F O R E: THE HONORABLE EDWARD A. HAGGERTY, JR., JUDGE, SECTION "C"
HERBERT ORTH, a witness called by and on behalf of the State, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. ALFORD:
Q: Sir, would you tell the Gentlemen of the Jury and the Court your name, please.
A: My name is Herbert Orth.
Q: Mr. Orth, would you be careful to speak into the microphone.
A: Fine, fine.
Q: By whom are you employed, Mr. Orth?
A: LIFE Magazine.
Q: In what capacity?
A: Laboratory Chief of the TIME-LIFE Photo Laboratory.
Q: Now, Mr. Orth, in connection with a subpoena issued by this court to LIFE Magazine, did you perform any function or develop any photographs?
A: Yes, I did, yes.
Q: What exactly did you do, sir?
A: Well, over the -- recently or --
Q: Yes, sir.
A: Well, I was asked recently to --
MR. DYMOND: Object to what he was asked to do, Your Honor.
BY MR. ALFORD:
Q: Can you explain to us what you did?
THE COURT: Tell what you did without telling us who asked you to do it.
THE WITNESS: All right. From the original Zapruder film I was asked to --
MR. DYMOND: Object to what he was asked to do.
THE COURT: Just tell us what you did.
BY MR. ALFORD:
Q: Mr. Orth, just tell us what you did.
A: I made black and white prints and I made color prints and color slides.
Q: Now, from what film or films were these made?
A: From the original Zapruder film.
Q: I see. Did you copy the entire film or did you make prints of the entire film or only portions of it?
A: Only portions.
Q: And what portions of this film did you reproduce in black and white prints?
A: Well, the black and white --
MR. DYMOND: If the Court please, we object to this entire testimony on the ground that it is irrelevant to the issues in this case.
THE COURT: The objection is overruled.
MR. DYMOND: To which ruling we reserve a bill, making the objection, the reason for it, the entire line of questioning, all the answers given by this witness together with all of the testimony and the record up until this point parts of the bill.
THE COURT: You may proceed, Mr. Orth.
THE WITNESS: The black and white prints were made many years ago, only for editorial use; the color prints were made recently.
BY MR. ALFORD:
Q: I see. And what portions of the film do the black and white prints purport to cover,
sir?
MR. DYMOND: We object to this on the ground that the prints speak for themselves, if the Court please, rather than have the --
MR. ALFORD: I will rephrase the question.
BY MR. ALFORD:
Q: How many black and white prints do you have, sir, in your possession?
A: I have none, only color prints with me.
Q: About 21 or 22 8 x 10 color photographs.
Q: Do you have them in your possession at this time?
A: Yes, I have, in my brief case.
Q: Would you please take them out, sir.
A: Certainly (producing photographs).
Q: How many of these photographs are there, sir?
A: I believe there are either 21 or 22.
Q: Would you count them, please.
A: Yes. (Counting) Twenty-one.
Q: Were these prints made by you personally or under your supervision?
A: Some by me and some under my supervision.
Q: I see. Do these prints accurately depict the scenes which they purport to?
A: Yes, they do, yes, they do.
THE COURT: May I suggest that you let Defense Counsel see these.
MR. ALFORD: Yes, sir, yes, sir (Exhibiting photographs to Counsel).
BY MR. ALFORD:
Q: Mr. Orth, do these photographs have numbers on them, sir?
A: Yes, they do, yes.
Q: And what do these numbers represent, sir?
A: Well, they actually represent the --
MR. DYMOND: Your Honor, we object unless it is first established who put those numbers on there.
MR. ALFORD: Very well.
BY MR. ALFORD:
Q: Who placed the numbers on the pictures?
A: I actually put these numbers on here personally.
THE COURT: Louder.
THE WITNESS: I put these numbers on there.
BY MR. ALFORD:
Q: And what do they represent?
A: They represent the frame numbers corresponding to the original 8-millimeter movie film.
Q: Thank you, sir.
A: You are welcome.
MR. ALFORD: May it please the Court, in accordance with the subpoena duces tecum I would like the record to presently reflect that these photographs have been turned over to the Court.
BY MR. ALFORD:
Q: Mr. Orth, do you have any slides in your possession at this time?
A: Yes, I do.
Q: Would you please take those out.
A: Yes, sir (producing slides).
Q: How many such slides do you have in your possession, Mr. Orth?
A: From frame 200 to frame 320, so that would be 120 slides.
Q: I see. And were these slides processed either by you personally or under your supervision?
A: Yes, they were.
(Slides exhibited to Mr. Dymond.)
BY MR. ALFORD:
Q: Now, Mr. Orth, I notice that these slides also have on them a number. Could you
please explain l-- or did you personally place this number on these slides?
A: No, not personally these numbers, but they were put on under my supervision.
MR. DYMOND: Object.
MR. ALFORD: He said they were put on under his supervision.
THE COURT: What is the objection, Mr. Dymond?
MR. DYMOND: I will withdraw that objection, Your Honor.
BY MR. ALFORD:
Q: And what do the numbers represent, sir?
A: Well, again they represent the actual frame numbers to correspond with the original 8-millimeter movie film.
MR. ALFORD: May it please the Court, at this time in accordance with the subpoena duces tecum I wish to present to the Court 120 slides from the Zapruder film, sir.
THE COURT: Mr. Alcock, you have not given these an identifying number for an exhibit. Would you like the next number we have, merely for identification purposes? It would be S-53, the next State exhibit number. For the record, I think we should identify -- at least for identification purposes at this time we should identify what these are.
MR. ALFORD: Yes, sir. It is merely our intent at this time to make the return on the subpoena duces tecum, and, if it please the Court, at a later time we will number these items to be admitted in evidence.
THE COURT: I would suggest you number them now. Make them S-53 for the photographs for identification purposes --
MR. ALFORD: Very well.
THE COURT: And S-54 for the slides, for identification purposes --
MR. ALFORD: Very well.
THE COURT: -- so we will know what we are talking about for the record. They are not accepted in evidence at this moment.
MR. ALFORD: Yes, sir.
(Whereupon, the photographs and slides identified by the witness were duly marked for identification as "S-53" and "S-54.")
MR. ALFORD: The State has no further questions at this time.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. DYMOND:
Q: Mr. Orth, when you say that these prints were made, some of them were made under your supervision, now, precisely what do you mean by that?
A: Well, they were all made under my supervision, in my capacity; some of them were made by myself. There are approximately seven people that at one time or another were involved, but everything came through me and I was directly involved in the entire procedure.
Q: Well, when you say made under your supervision, do you mean that they were made by employees in an office of which you are chief or at the head of the office, or what?
A: That is correct, yes.
Q: Were you physically present during the making of each one of these prints, observing the mechanics of making each one of the [sic]?
A: Yes, very much so. I can tell you why.
Q: Go right ahead.
A: The reason was the importance of the films. We don't like to leave the film out of our hands at any time, out of the company vault. I signed them out of the company vault, and therefore I was responsible for it and I never left it out of my sight as long as it was in the lab, so while the film was being worked on and while these prints were made I was constantly there.
Q: Would the same apply to the slides?
A: Very much so, yes.
Q: That is all, sir.
A: Thank you.
THE COURT: Do you have any further need of this gentleman?
MR. ALFORD: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Thank you.
(Witness excused.)
MR. OSER: Your Honor, if the Court please, may I request that besides Mr. Orth being excused from the subpoena, also Time Incorporated be excused from the subpoena?
THE COURT: You are excused from the subpoena.
MR. OSER: Your Honor, at this time, may it please the Court, the State asks for the luncheon recess, because at 1:30 the State intends to put on its testimony in regard to these particular photographs, an expert witness. It is ten minutes to the hour now.
THE COURT: Gentlemen of the Jury, we are now going to recess for lunch. Again I must instruct you and admonish you. You may be tempted, because of the duration of this trial, to want to talk to one another. I certainly do not have any objections to jurors conversing with one another, but certainly I must admonish you not to discuss the case, as tempting as it may be to do, not to discuss the case with yourselves or sheriffs or anyone else until it is finally given to you for your decision. The Jury will be excused. We stand recessed for lunch and we will be adjourned to 1:30.
Mr. Shaw, you are excused under your bond.