March 9, 1967
ORLEANS PARISH GRAND JURY
PROCEEDINGS OF
MARCH 9, 1967
PRESENT: MESSRS. ALVIN OSER, RICHARD BURNES AND JAMES ALCOCK, Assistant District Attorneys
MEMBERS ORLEANS PARISH GRAND JURY
WITNESS: MRS. JOSEPHINE HUG
Reported By:
Maureen B. Thiel
Secretary
Orleans Parish Grand Jury
MRS. JOSEPHINE HUG, after being duly sworn was questioned and answered as follows:
BY MR. RICHARD BURNES:
Mrs. Hug, there is a paper on the table in front of you -- this is the waiver that I spoke to you and your attorney about. I would like for you to read the waiver of immunity for yourself if you will please.
BY MR. BURNES:
Mrs. Hug, do you recall my discussing this waiver with you and your attorney upstairs?
A. Yes.
Q. What is your attorney's name?
A. Jim Gelpi.
Q. Would you sign this waiver -- and have you discussed signing this waiver with your attorney?
A. Yes.
Q. Then it's with his advice that you are signing it?
A. Yes.
Q. I want this exhibit marked for identification, Exhibit 1. Mrs. Hug, will you state your full name?
A. Josephine Hug.
Q. Is that your married name?
A. Yes.
Q. What is your husband's name?
A. Jasper J. Hug.
Q. Where do you live?
A. 2500 Elysian Fields.
Q. Prior to marriage what was your name?
A. Josephine LeFevre.
Q. At the time you were Josephine LeFavre, did you have occasion to know Clay Shaw?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. How did you come to meet Clay Shaw?
A. I was interviewed for an appointment.
Q. What year was this?
A. 1959.
Q. What was the employment you were interviewed for?
A. Secretary for the new International Trade Mart.
Q. By whom were you interviewed?
A. Mr. Shaw.
Q. What happened when you were interviewed? Did you get the job?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. What was your job when you were hired?
A. Secretarial work for space in the new Trade Mart.
Q. Where was your office located in relation to Mr. Shaw's office when you were first employed?
A. I was downstairs on the main floor.
Q. Where was his office?
A. He was up on the second floor.
Q. Did your office remain downstairs all the time?
A. No.
Q. When did it move?
A. I don't remember the exact date, but sometime in 1960. I was transferred upstairs.
Q. In 1960 when you were transferred upstairs, where was your office in relation to Mr. Shaw's office?
A. It was adjoining.
Q. Could you see persons going in and leaving his office?
A. Yes.
Q. Would it be a great amount of difficulty to see someone leaving and going in his office?
A. No, easy.
Q. Particularly who did you work for during this time?
A. My immediate superior was Mr. Jesse Core, Public Relations Director.
Q. How long did you work for the International Trade Mart?
A. From 1959 to the summer of 1962.
Q. Did you have occasion to see David Ferrie's picture in the newspaper?
A. Yes.
Q. Did that appear to be someone that you had known?
A. There seemed to be a similarity.
Q. To whom?
A. Someone that used to come into the Trade Mart.
Q. This someone that used to come into the Trade Mart, where would he go?
A. Into the executive offices.
Q. Whose office in the executive offices?
A. (Inaudible.)
Q. Did you ever see him go into Mr. Shaw's office when Mr. Shaw would be in that office?
A. Yes.
Q. About how many times did you see this? Roughly?
A. Oh, I don't know.
Q. More than two?
A. Yes.
Q. Probably less than twenty?
A. Yes.
Q. What would be a good round number to guess the number of times?
A. That would be an inaccurate statement because I wouldn't know.
Q. It would be more than just a few times, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you describe the person that you saw going into Mr. Shaw's office?
A. He was of slight build, crew cut, even shorter than a crew cut . . .
Q. Did you describe him to me as being a man with his head shaved?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you also describe him to me as a man who wore a wig?
A. No.
Q. Do you recall me asking you last Saturday in reference to this person you saw going into Mr. Shaw's office?
A. Yes.
Q. Prior to my interviewing you last Saturday, did you discuss with anyone seeing this man going into Mr. Shaw's office?
A. I did. I discussed seeing a man going into Mr. Shaw's office.
Q. With whom did you discuss this?
A. I discussed it, I believe, the day Mr. Shaw was arrested.
Q. Do you recall where you were at this time?
A. We were having dinner at the Andrew Jackson.
Q. Who was at the Andrew Jackson besides yourself?
A. Myself, my husband and two other couples.
Q. Can you give the Grand Jury the names of the other couples?
A. Mr. and Mrs. Robert Smith, Mr. and Mrs. James Jeffers.
Q. Was your husband present?
A. Yes.
Q. Was the manager of the Andrew Jackson present at any time?
A. One of the co-owners was present part of the time.
Q. Do you recall his name?
A. Mr. Dean Colomb.
Q. Did he sit at the table part of the time?
A. Yes.
Q. Was this part of the time when the discussion was going on?
A. Well, it seems like that was the text of the conversation all evening.
Q. Was someone else present part of the time?
A. Well, naturally the head waiter.
Q. Did he stay long enough to hear part of this conversation?
A. I didn't pay too much attention, but I imagine so.
Q. Did you mention the name of Dave Ferrie at the dinner?
A. We all discussed Dave Ferrie.
Q. Did you express any belief at that time that you believed he was the person who came in and out of Mr. Clay Shaw's office?
A. Yes, I said there is a possibility.
Q. Did you express a belief or a mere possibility?
A. I discussed a belief.
Q. Did you talk with anyone else subsequent to the dinner and prior to the date you talked to Assistant District Attorney Sciambra and myself last Saturday? About this person by name?
A. Since Saturday?
Q. Before Saturday?
A. Did I discuss Dave Ferrie after the Andrew Jackson incident?
Q. Yes.
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. Did you see a Dr. James Nix?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you discuss this with Dr. Nix? Dr. James T. Nix? We are not going into what you may have said -- did you discuss this with Dr. Nix?
A. The name was brought up, yes.
Q. You mentioned Dave Ferrie's name to Dr. Nix, is that correct? In connection with Clay Shaw's name?
A. Only that I worked for Clay Shaw.
Q. Did you tell Dr. Nix that Clay Shaw had lied -- that, in fact, Dave Ferrie had been in his office ten times -- that you had seen him go in?
A. No.
Q. In my interview with you this morning, did you tell me that you had not discussed this with anyone other than the parties present in the Andrew Jackson?
A. Yes.
Q. That was incorrect when you told me that this morning?
A. Well, I don't know what you mean.
Q. You did discuss this with Dr. Nix, is that correct?
A. You mean did we talk about it, yes.
Q. And did you tell me this morning that you did not, is that correct?
A. With Dr. Nix?
Q. That is correct.
A. I told you I discussed it with Dr. Nix.
Q. You told me you had discussed Dave Ferrie with Dr. Nix.
A. Yes, because I said Dr. Nix made the comment to me, how could a man write a suicide note and then die of cerebral hemorrhage.
Q. Was that the time you told Dr. Nix that you believed this was the person who had been in Mr. Shaw's office? Did you ever tell Dr. Nix that this person had been in Mr. Shaw's office?
A. No.
Q. You did not tell Dr. Nix that you had . . .
A. No, I never was positive that this was the individual that came in with the attache case.
Q. Did you tell Dr. Nix that the person you believed to be Dave Ferrie had come into Clay Shaw's office?
A. There is a possibility.
Q. What do you mean, there is a possibility? I want you to try to explain to the jurors what you mean by possibility.
A. Well, it's as simple as this. During the time I was with the Trade Mart, there was this gentleman who would come in with an attache case frequently. Mr. Shaw, as a rule, would close the door. This is the man that I thought was similar to the one in the paper.
Q. Did you tell me in my office that you had not discussed Dave Ferrie with Dr. Nix?
A. I don't recall.
Q. At the time you told me this, was that in my office with your attorney present this morning?
A. I told you I did not discuss Dave Ferrie with Dr. Nix?
Q. That's right. You don't recall when you told me that? If I were to tell you that our conversation was on tape, would you change your testimony?
A. It's possible that I did say this, Mr. Burnes.
Q. In other words, it's possible that you told me that you did not discuss Dave Ferrie with Dr. Nix. Now, did you tell Dr. Nix that you believed this person to be Dave Ferrie?
A. There is a possibility.
Q. Did you tell him it was David Ferrie?
A. No, I never was positive.
Q. Now, if I were to ask you to sign a release for him to testify as to anything you might have told him regarding Clay Shaw and David Ferrie, are you in a position to say that you would or that you would not sign a release?
A. I would sign it.
Q. I do have such a release for signing now. Would you sign such a release now?
A. Without consulting with my attorney?
Q. You consulted with him about this matter this morning?
A. Yes.
Q. Well, are you in a position to make a decision?
A. Until when? (No answer.)
So as there is no ambiguity, I am marking this Exhibit 2. This appears to be a similar release in blank form which I showed you and your attorney in my office and which you all discussed?
A. Yes.
Q. I want to make this part of the record and turn it over to the stenographer. Now, the exhibit reads:
State of Louisiana
Parish of OrleansRELEASE OF PRIVILEGED COMMUNICATION
AFFIDAVIT
BEFORE ME, the undersigned authority, personally came and appeared:
MRS. JOSEPHINE HUG
who, after being duly sworn did depose and say:
That this affidavit is made for the express purpose, and affiant does hereby execute a waiver as is provided under LSA RS 15:478 of any privileged communication by the affiant and Dr. J. T. Nix relative to statements made by affiant to the said Dr. J. T. Nix in regard to Clay Shaw and David Ferrie. That [sic]
This waiver is restricted to the above designated purpose.
Places for your signature, witness and the Notary.
Now, are you in a position to execute a waiver voluntarily to relate what you may have stated to Dr. Nix?
A. I haven't told Dr. Nix . . . we are friendly and it was the topic of the day, so naturally we discussed it.
Q. Are you in a position to execute this waiver or not?
A. So that Dr. Nix would feel free . . .
Q. So that Dr. Nix would feel free to state anything you may have stated to him about Clay Shaw or David Ferrie.
A. Yes.
Q. And this is the same waiver. Is that Dr. James T. Nix?
A. Yes.
Q. Would you sign there above your name. Al Oser, I believe you are a Notary, is that correct?
Mr. OSER:
Yes (signing).
Mr. BURNES:
I will sign as a witness. I am marking S-3, I want to get a certified copy to Dr. Nix, but am filing this with the Grand Jury Minutes at this time. Now, in view of the waiver, you realize of course that you are under oath at this time and giving sworn testimony -- if you give false testimony before the Grand Jury it would constitute perjury. Did your attorney advise you of that?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, did you discuss with Dr. Nix David Ferrie and Clay Shaw?
A. Yes, I discussed David Ferrie with Dr. Nix.
Q. Did you tell Dr. Nix that David Ferrie had entered Clay Shaw's office on several occasions? And that you had observed this?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you tell him you thought David Ferrie had entered Clay Shaw's office on occasion and you had observed this?
A. I don't recall.
Q. Do you recall, or did you discuss at any time with Dr. Nix, the presence of Dave Ferrie, or a person you believed to be Dave Ferrie in Clay Shaw's office in the International Trade Mart?
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. Did you see Dr. Nix the day before I contacted you?
A. That was on Saturday?
Q. Yes, I contacted you on Saturday.
A. Yes, I saw him on Friday.
Q. Now, this is the time I am referring to -- would your answer still be the same?
A. What, did I discuss Dave Ferrie with Dr. Nix?
Q. That you did not discuss Dave Ferrie in relation to Clay Shaw's office with Dr. Nix.
A. No, because I was not positive of identification.
MR. BURNES:
Gentlemen, those are all the questions I wanted to ask.
BY A JUROR:
Mrs. Hug, we got the impression that this man, who we think later was possibly David Ferrie, was in the office about nine, ten, eleven or twelve times. During that time, wouldn't you have become familiar with the man's name?
A. No, because this person that I have described, Mr. Shaw was always expecting, and when he expected someone I did not have to announce him.
Q. You say that Mr. Shaw was expecting this person -- how would he identify this person to you so that you would know who he was expecting?
A. Mr. Shaw's door would be open; he could see who was coming down the hall.
Q. He could see, but how would you know that this was the man he was expecting -- wave to you or signal to you to let this man come in without being announced?
A. Well, like you were busy and looked up and then the man would go into Mr. Shaw's office -- he didn't need to be announced. Just walk in.
Q. He never did indicate that this man -- indicate him by a certain name -- just let him come in -- he never did discuss the problem?
A. No.
Q. I would like to know this too. Since you were discussing this quite frequently -- you were discussing this in the conversation at the Andrew Jackson -- what prompted the discussion of the similarity of this man Dave Ferrie -- why would this even come into the conversation? Did you have some reason to believe that it was David Ferrie?
A. Yes, I thought there was some . . .
Q. You thought there was some connection? By what reasoning did you think there was a connection?
A. Well, I thought it was the same man.
Q. You thought this was David Ferrie. Do you still think this was David Ferrie?
A. No.
Q. You do not now, but you thought it then?
A. Yes.
Q. You have changed your mind about this man?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you mind telling us why you have changed your mind?
A. Yes, because since the evening at the Andrew Jackson I have seen pictures of David Ferrie and it is not the same man.
Q. Now you say definitely that it is not the same man?
A. No.
Q. The man that you previously identified as thinking it was Dave Ferrie going into the office, you now say definitely it was not David Ferrie?
A. No, it was not.
Q. It was not David Ferrie?
A. No, it was not.
Q. Mrs. Hug, wasn't your original impression that this was the man predicated on pictures that you had seen of Mr. Ferrie?
A. This was predicated on one picture which was on the front page of the newspaper and . . .
Q. And subsequently you had reason to change your mind?
A. I did not see any other pictures until I went down to the District Attorney's Office.
Q. All the times this man visited Mr. Shaw's office, there was never one salutation either coming or going, not one time? Either goodbye, Joe, or hello, Charlie?
A. No. Not to my knowledge.
Q. How did they greet each other? Just walk in and shut the door? Normally we go in and say hello, Margie, or something.
A. Mr. Shaw's office was adjoining mine and the door would be open . . .
Q. The man wouldn't walk out sometimes and say goodbye to him?
A. Sometimes they would walk down the hall together.
Q. Did you never have a conversation with him at all?
A. No.
Q. He just walked past your desk?
A. Yes.
Q. Mrs. Hug, normally any individual coming into your office to go into Mr. Shaw's office, would walk past your desk -- what would be the proximity to your desk?
A. You mean, how close would he have to pass to get to Mr. Shaw's office?
Q. Yes.
A. Actually, there were three of us: the receptionist, me and Mr. Shaw's personal secretary. The receptionist took most of the phone calls, except when she was busy, and she received most of the callers as a general rule.
Q. Then he received the visitors if she wasn't there?
A. Generally.
Q. Now that we have established that this man came there quite often or on occasion, when did he stop coming to see Mr. Shaw?
A. I left.
Q. He was still making these visits when you left?
A. Yes.
Q. When did you leave?
A. August 1962.
Q. Miss Hug, has this man ever come to the office and Mr. Shaw not be there? To your knowledge?
A. Not that I recall.
Q. Now that this has changed to a point where this is not the man you thought it was, do you mind telling us what brought this all about and why you became involved in it to begin with and now you have changed your position.
A. That's a good question. Evidently, it was all over a dinner conversation -- we all had had wine with each course, and seems like every time you meet one someone knows someone involved [sic]. It was all over the dinner table . . .
Q. Talked too much?
A. Yes.
Q. It is your belief now that this is not the man?
A. I am positive of it.
Q. You haven't seen this man in four years, is that right?
A. What man?
Q. The man who used to come into the office?
A. I saw him on the street once since then.
Q. The first picture you saw, I believe, was a picture that had been taken some time previously -- that is the man you thought used to come in. Well, there would probably [be] some change in the man in four years, I would imagine.
A. I took that into consideration.
Q. Where did you see him on the street?
A. I don't recall, but it was just passing.
Q. Do you recall when?
A. Fairly recently.
Q. A month ago?
A. I have no idea.
Q. More than a month ago?
A. I would say fairly recently.
Q. What was he wearing at that time?
A. Still carrying his attache case and Ivy League suit.
Q. Hat on?
A. No.
Q. Glasses on?
A. Yes.
Q. What was his hair condition when you saw him?
A. Same.
Q. Close-cropped?
A. Close still.
Q. Are you still friends with Clay Shaw?
A. No.
Q. When was the last time you saw Clay Shaw?
A. The day that I resigned.
Q. Have you corresponded with him by telephone -- has he called you or you him since then?
A. No.
Q. Do you know his attorney, Guy Johnson?
A. No.
Q. Do you know Mr. Wegmann?
A. No.
Q. Were you called this morning by Mr. Robert Smith, who was at the party?
A. (Inaudible.)
Q. You stated that you changed your mind about this being David Ferrie. Did you change your mind at the time the Assistant District Attorney Andrew Sciambra and I were at your home last Saturday?
A. After you showed me those pictures?
Q. No, before.
A. No, I wasn't certain until you brought me down and showed me the pictures.
Q. Do you recall us asking you in your apartment if this man was David Ferrie at the time I was taking notes?
A. What -- the man in the paper?
Q. Correct. If the man in the paper was the man you saw in the office?
A. And what did I say?
Q. Do you recall us asking you and you stated at that time that you could not be positive?
A. Yes.
Q. You no longer believe it to be Dave Ferrie?
A. I said I would like to see the pictures of him. I told you about this gentleman that came to Mr. Shaw's office.
Q. Did you notice anything unusual about his eyebrows? The person in the photograph in the paper and the person in the office?
A. Yes, that is what distorted my thinking, because the person who came in the office always wore dark glasses and I could not see underneath.
Q. Have you discussed this with anyone other than your husband, your attorney, Mrs. Robert Smith, myself -- have you discussed it with anyone outside the District Attorney's Office and the people at the dinner party?
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q, Have you discussed it with Mrs. Grace Campbell?
A. Yes.
Q. When?
A. She came over to my house Sunday afternoon.
BY A JUROR:
Did you tell Mrs. Grace Campbell that it was David Ferrie then?
A. No.
Q. You told her it was not David Ferrie then -- this past Sunday?
A. (Inaudible.)
BY A JUROR:
During these frequent visits, you were at no time in the office when this gentleman was visiting with Mr. Shaw? I mean, were the three of you together at any time?
A. No.
Q. When you met this gentleman some short time ago on the street, did you greet each other?
A. No, it was from a distance. Because I did not know this man's name, his occupation, you know, I more or less got the impression that it was perhaps social.
Q. Did he have any identifying marks on his attache case?
A. No.
Q. Any initials, company name?
A. No.
Q. Can you describe this case, to the best of your recollection?
A. To the best of my knowledge, it was kinder [sic] brownish.
Q. Did this man ever wear any kind of uniform of any kind when he called -- anything that resembled a uniform -- other than street clothes or a business suit?
A. No, it was an Ivy League suit.
Q. A beard?
A. No.
Q. What was the general policy in Mr. Shaw's office; was this an unusual circumstance that this individual would come in and not be announced, or was it the ordinary thing -- was it the exception to the rule?
A. Well, as a rule they would be announced, unless he was expecting someone who . . .
Q. As in the case of this gentleman we are referring to here -- would you say that would fall into the category of an exception to the rule?
A. Well, it seems curious, doesn't it?
JUROR:
Mrs. Hug, it would seem to me normally that in an office with three girls and people are normally announced by name or have to wait to visit someone, that if someone came in who had free access to the office, would it not be normal for one of the other girls to ask who is this man who has free access -- at least wonder about it?
A. Well, we discussed it.
Q. And did she ever tell you the man's name?
A. Mr. Shaw's secretary? Miss Moore? No.
Q. What did she give as a reason for him being able to come in at will?
A. Well, it did happen -- if he knew someone quite well and we were busy -- he would just nod and they would come in.
Q. You did ask her at one time who this man might be?
A. No, we just discussed it among ourselves -- I don't think she really knew, to tell the truth.
Q. Was this Miss Goldie Moore?
A. Yes.
Q. Anything else, gentlemen?
Thank you, Mrs. Hug.
CERTIFICATE
I, Maureen B. Thiel, do hereby certify that that [sic] the preceding transcript is a true and correct copy of the testimony given, under oath, in the preceding matter, before the Orleans Parish Grand Jury, on the 9th day of March, 1967, and reduced to typewriting by me.
[signed] Maureen B. Thiel