CRIMINAL DISTRICT COURT
PARISH OF ORLEANS
STATE OF LOUISIANA
STATE OF LOUISIANA versus CLAY L. SHAW
NO. 198-059
1426 (30)
SECTION "C"
EXCERPT OF PROCEEDINGS IN OPEN COURT
on February 7, 1969
B E F O R E: HONORABLE EDWARD A. HAGGERTY, JR., JUDGE, SECTION "C"
. . . . Pursuant to the adjournment of Thursday, February 6, 1969, the Proceedings herein were resumed at 10:00 o'clock a.m. on Friday, February 7, 1969, appearances being the same as heretofore noted in the record . . . .
THE COURT: I have been requested by Mr. Dymond of the Defense not to bring the Jury down because he wished to make an oral motion. I will be glad to entertain you, Mr. Dymond.
MR. DYMOND: If the Court please, at this time on behalf of the Defendant we move for permission to withdraw from the registry of the Court, or from evidence, if it is done after it is introduced in evidence, the document referred to by the State in its opening statement as the "VIP Book of Eastern Airlines" for the purpose of having Mr. Gilbert Fortier, a duly qualified handwriting expert, make an examination of the purported signature in that book.
THE COURT: Is there any objection?
MR. ALCOCK: Your Honor, the State has no objection to that, with this one proviso, that a representative of the District Attorney's Office is present at the time that Mr. Fortier does examine this document.
MR. DYMOND: We have no objection at all to that, Judge.
THE COURT: Very well. At the proper time I will so order the document to be placed in a position where your expert can make an examination of it. Do you have any further motions?
MR. DYMOND: That is all.
THE COURT: Bring the Jury, please.
(Whereupon, the Jury was recalled to the Courtroom.)
THE COURT: Are the State and the Defense ready to proceed?
MR. DYMOND: We are ready, Judge.
THE COURT: Call your next witness.
MR. SCIAMBRA: The State calls Mr. William Dunn.
WILLIAM DUNN, SR., a witness called by and on behalf of the State, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. SCIAMBRA:
Q: State your name to the Court, please.
A: William Dunn, Sr.
Q: And where do you live, Mr. Dunn?
A: I live in Clinton.
Q: Clinton, Louisiana?
A: Clinton, Louisiana.
Q: And how long have you lived in Clinton, Louisiana?
A: Practically all my life.
Q: And what is your occupation?
A: Farming and construction work there.
Q: And how long have you been farming and doing construction work?
A: Mostly all my life.
Q: Were you doing this work in 1963?
A: I was.
Q: In connection with this word did you have occasion to do any of this work in Clinton in the summer of '63?
A: I was.
Q: Did you have any purpose to go in to Clinton, Louisiana, in addition to your regular jobs, in the summer of 1963?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: What was that occasion?
A: I was working with CORE in Clinton.
Q: The Congress of Racial Equality?
A: The Congress of Racial Equality people.
Q: And this was in the summer of 1963?
A: 1963.
Q: In relationship with your dealings with CORE, what did this consist of?
A: I beg your pardon?
Q: What were you doing for CORE in Clinton, Louisiana?
A: Trying to help register people up.
Q: Was this the time when they had the registration drive going on?
A: That is right, the registration drive was going on.
Q: Did you get in to Clinton a lot?
A: I did.
Q: In the course of your activity with CORE in Clinton, Louisiana, I call your attention to late August or early September of 1963, and I ask you: Did you have occasion to see any strange cars in town at that time?
A: Yes, I did, I seen a black Cadillac parked in Clinton.
Q: Where was the black Cadillac?
A: Right in front of the Registrar's Office.
Q: Can you remember about when this was?
A: I was standing in front of the Registrar's Office door.
Q: About when was this?
A: About when it was?
Q: Yes, when.
A: Oh, in 1963, late August or early September.
Q: How can you arrive at that time?
A: I arrived because it was about a month and a half before you go to cane farming.
Q: About a month and a half before you go into cane farming. And when was the date you went to cane farming?
A: I didn't understand you.
Q: What date did you go on the cane farming?
A: Usually goes on the cane farming on the 13th of October.
Q: In other words, about a month or a month and a half before October 13, 1963?
A: Month and a half before October 13.
Q: About how far from the Registrar's Office would you say the black Cadillac was parked?
A: Maybe 20 or 30 feet.
Q: Can you describe the black Cadillac?
A: I can.
Q: Would you give us a description?
A: It was a big black Cadillac, shiny looking. I saw mostly the front of it though.
Q: (Exhibiting photograph to witness) I show you a photograph which the State has marked "S-2" for purposes of identification, and I ask you if you can identify the automobile in this photograph.
A: This looks like the car right here.
Q: Just like the car parked in front of the Registrar's Office?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Was there any particular reason why you happened to notice this car?
A: Yes, it was a strange car to me, I had never seen that car before there in town. Fact of the business, the car was there -- I thought it was the FBI.
Q: You thought the car was the FBI?
A: I thought it was the FBI.
Q: Were there FBI agents in the area at that time?
A: I believe it was.
Q: Would it be fair to say that in the course of this registration drive --
MR. DYMOND: I object to leading the witness, Your Honor, "Would it be fair to say."
THE COURT: Rephrase your question, if you will, Mr. Sciambra.
BY MR. SCIAMBRA:
Q: Were you paying attention to all strange cars in the area at the time?
A: I was, all the strange cars, I was paying close attention.
Q: Can you remember about what time of the day you got there?
A: I got there about 9:00 or 9:30.
Q: In the morning?
A: In the morning.
Q: Was the black Cadillac there when you got there?
A: No, it wasn't there when I got there.
Q: Did you see the car pull up?
A: No, I did not.
Q: What did you do when you got in Clinton that day?
A: I went on and got in the registration line.
Q: Right in the Registration Office, you say?
A: In the Registration Office, yes, near to the Registration Office, but I was in the line.
Q: Did you stay in the Registrar's Office?
A: No, I didn't stay.
Q: -- all morning?
A: I didn't stay in there, I come down and talked with some of the CORE workers I was working with.
Q: Do you remember any of the CORE workers that you talked to when you came downstairs?
A: Corrie Collins.
Q: Corrie Collins was also working for CORE?
A: That is right.
Q: Can you remember approximately where you were standing when you first noticed the black Cadillac?
A: I was standing in front of the Registration Office, just on the outside.
Q: About how far from the car were you?
A: Oh, about 20 or 30 feet.
Q: Did you notice if there were any people in the car?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: How many?
A: I knows one man was setting behind the wheel, and maybe be another one but I am not sure.
Q: In the front seat maybe another one?
A: On the front seat.
Q: But you are not sure about the other one?
A: I am not sure about the other one.
Q: What made you notice the man behind the wheel?
A: Because he was a stranger to me.
Q: How far away from the car were you when you noticed the man behind the wheel?
A: About 20 or 30 feet.
Q: Can you approximate how long you had to look at him?
A: Five or ten minutes.
Q: Can you describe the man behind the wheel?
A: I can. He was -- big shoulders, big man, and gray hair.
Q: Do you see that man in this courtroom today?
A: I do.
Q: Would you point him out, please?
A: (Indicating) Right here.
MR. SCIAMBRA: May we have the record reflect that the witness pointed to the Defendant before the bar, Clay Shaw?
THE COURT: Let it be noted in the record.
BY MR. SCIAMBRA:
Q: What was he doing in the car?
A: Just setting in the car.
Q: Did you notice anyone go up to the car?
A: No, sir, I didn't.
Q: Were there many people in line waiting to register?
A: It was.
Q: About how many people would you say were in line?
A: Oh, 25 or 30.
Q: Did you notice any strangers in the registration line?
A: I did, I noticed one young white boy in the registration line.
Q: (Exhibiting photograph to witness) I show you a picture that the State has marked "S-1" for purposes of identification, and I ask you if you recognize the individual in this picture?
A: That is the boy's picture was standing in line.
Q: Do you know who this person is?
A: I do.
Q: Who is it?
A: Lee Oswald.
Q: Was there any particular reason why you happened to notice this boy?
A: He was a stranger to me, I had never seen him before.
Q: Were there many white people in line?
A: Just a few.
Q: How many would you say?
A: Maybe four or five.
Q: Did you ever talk to Oswald?
A: No, sir, I did not.
Q: About how many times would you say you passed Oswald that day?
A: Just a few times.
Q: Was he in line every time you passed him?
A: Every time I passed.
Q: Do you remember what time you got to talk to the Registrar that day?
A: About the middle of the day.
Q: And how long did you talk to the Registrar?
A: Just a short while.
Q: And who is the Registrar, or who was the Registrar at that time?
A: Palmer.
Q: Henry E. Palmer?
A: Henry E. Palmer.
Q: Can you remember about what time you left the Registrar's Office?
A: I left there about 2:00 or 2:30.
Q: Was Oswald in line when you left?
A: He was in line when I left.
Q: What did you do after you left the Registrar's Office?
A: I went on home, went to my farm.
Q: Did you ever see Oswald get out of that line?
A: No, sir, I did not.
Q: Did you see Oswald's picture in the newspaper after the assassination of President Kennedy?
A: I did.
Q: Did you recognize him?
A: Sure did.
Q: Where did you recognize him from?
A: I recognized him from seeing him in Clinton, my home town.
Q: Did you see Clay Shaw's picture in the paper after that?
A: I did.
Q: Did you recognize him?
A: I recognize him.
Q: Where did you recognize him from?
A: Recognized him from seeing him in my home town setting in the black Cadillac.
MR. SCIAMBRA: Tender the witness, Your Honor.