CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. DYMOND:
Q: Mr. Collins, when you saw the person that you say was Lee Harvey Oswald get out of this car, where were you standing?
A: Where was I standing?
Q: Yes.
A: In the vicinity of the Registrar's Office.
Q: Were you standing in front of the Registrar's Office would you say?
A: Not directly, no.
Q: But almost in front? Is that right?
A: Yes, to an angle from it.
Q: I see. You were standing there when you saw this man get out of the black Cadillac? Is that correct?
A: Beg pardon?
Q: You were standing there when you saw this man get out of the black Cadillac? Is that right?
A: That is right.
Q: Now, where was Mr. Manchester at that time, do you know?
A: Where was Mr. Manchester at that time?
Q: Yes.
A: I don't know where he was at the precise time that the car drove up.
Q: I didn't ask you about when the car drove up, I said when the man whom you identified as Oswald got out of the car.
A: I don't know where he was at that time.
Q: When did you first see Mr. Manchester after you saw this man get out of the car?
A: I saw Mr. Manchester as he approached the car.
Q: Where at that time was the man who had gotten out of the car?
A: He had gone to the -- into the Registrar's Office.
Q: He had gone into the Registrar's Office, is that right?
A: He had gone into the building where the Registrar's Office is.
Q: I see. The man you identified as Lee Harvey Oswald you say got out of that car. How was he dressed at that time?
A: He was dressed neat.
Q: Describe his clothing for me.
A: Beg pardon?
Q: Describe his clothing for me.
A: Well, he had on slacks.
Q: What color slacks?
A: I don't remember what color slacks.
Q: What color shirt?
A: It was a light color shirt.
Q: Are you sure it was a light colored shirt?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you notice his shoes?
A: No.
Q: You don't know what color shoes he had on? Is that right?
A: No.
Q: Did he have on a coat?
A: No.
Q: You are positive of that?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, how did you first become a witness in this case, Mr. Collins? Did they come to you or did you go to the D.A.'s Office, or how did you become a witness?
A: They came to me.
Q: When?
A: A few months after the Defendant was arrested.
Q: Was that before or after the preliminary hearing?
A: That was a few months after the Defendant was arrested.
Q: A few months after the Defendant was arrested?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Now, do you know what caused them to come to you?
MR. SCIAMBRA: Objected to, Your Honor.
THE COURT: I sustain your objection.
MR. DYMOND: If the Court please, if he doesn't know, all he has to do is say he doesn't know.
THE COURT: You can reserve a bill. I sustain the objection.
MR. DYMOND: Which I do reserve a bill, making the question, the statement, the objection, the Court's ruling parts of the bill together with the entire record.
BY MR. DYMOND:
Q: Did you give the District Attorney's Office or any law enforcement officers informa-
tion to the effect that you could be a witness in this case at any time shortly before you had your first interview with a representative of the District Attorney's Office?
A: No.
Q: Well, then you don't know what caused them to come to you, do you?
A: I don't.
Q: Now, you were aware that the Warren Commission was conducting an extensive investigation into the assassination of President Kennedy, were you not?
A: I was aware that they were investigating it.
Q: I see. At the time that you were aware of the fact that this investigation was being conducted, you knew that you had seen Lee Harvey Oswald in Clinton, did you not?
A: That is true.
Q: Did you report this to the Warren Commission or the FBI or any Federal agency?
A: No.
Q: Why not?
A: No one asked me.
Q: You didn't consider it your duty to report it?
A: Beg your pardon?
Q: You didn't consider it your duty to report it?
A: Well, I felt like if they wanted to know they would ask me.
Q: Were they supposed to just guess that you had information, or what?
MR. ALCOCK: Objection.
THE COURT: I sustain the objection.
(Reporter's Note: No bill reserved.)
BY MR. DYMOND:
Q: Now, I understand you were about 20 or 30 feet away from the car when looking at it? Is that right?
A: That is right.
Q: How long were you looking at it?
A: I don't remember exactly how long it was.
Q: Approximately how long?
A: I couldn't be sure of that either.
Q: Well, one minute, a half a minute, two minutes?
A: It was more than a minute, yes, it was a matter of minutes.
Q: A matter of how many minutes, about?
A: I don't know exactly how many.
Q: You don't know. How long did that black Cadillac stay where you saw it parked?
A: I don't know that either.
Q: Now, before you saw the occupants of this automobile in Clinton back in 1963, had you ever in your life seen any one of the three before?
A: No, I hadn't.
Q: And you say you looked at them for a couple of minutes from 20 or 30 feet away? Is that correct?
A: Yes. I didn't say a couple of minutes, I didn't say exactly how many minutes.
Q: A matter of minutes, right.
A: Right.
Q: Now, when was the first time that you saw a picture of this Defendant Clay Shaw?
A: When was the first time? It was -- I saw it in the news release after he was arrested.
Q: That would be in 1967, is that correct?
A: I believe so.
Q: Prior to seeing his picture in the paper upon his arrest, had you ever seen him before in person?
A: No, no more than that day.
Q: So on the basis of a picture which you saw in the paper, it is your testimony that you recognized a man whom you had seen for a matter of minutes over three years ago, is that right?
A: On the basis of which picture I saw in the paper?
Q: That is right.
A: Is that -- rephrase your question, state your question, please.
Q: On the basis of a picture that you saw in the paper, is it your testimony that you recognized a man whom you had seen for only a matter of minutes from 20 or 30 feet away over three years before?
A: I have seen him since.
Q: I asked you whether you had ever seen him before the picture.
A: You said before, yes; I say I have seen him since.
Q: Where did you see him since?
A: I saw him here in this courtroom.
Q: The first time that you saw him, the picture, was shortly after his arrest?
A: That is right.
Q: And you say you recognized the picture?
A: As having seen him before, yes.
Q: In Clinton? Is that right?
A: That is right, in the Clinton area, yes, sir.
Q: Did you recognize him as the man that you saw in that automobile when you saw his picture?
A: When I saw his picture, not immediately, no.
Q: Not immediately?
A: No.
Q: When did you finally recognize him?
A: After I had studied his picture and --
Q: Wait. I didn't hear that.
A: After I had looked at his picture and studied his picture, then I began to place where I saw him, yes.
Q: So you looked at this picture and studied it?
A: Yes, after I saw the familiarity where I knew I had seen him before, then I began to place where I saw him, yes.
Q: I see. Now I will repeat my question: And you say that after studying this picture in 1967, you recognized a man whom you had seen for only a matter of minutes from 20 or 30 feet away over three years before that?
A: Yes.
Q: And that is your testimony under oath?
A: Beg your pardon?
THE COURT: You don't have to repeat that, Mr. Dymond, it is obvious he took the oath.
MR. DYMOND: I want to make sure he realizes it, Judge.
THE COURT: He took an oath before he took the stand.
MR. DYMOND: I am trying to find out whether he has forgotten it.
THE WITNESS: No, I haven't forgotten it.
BY MR. DYMOND:
Q: You haven't. Now, the two men other than the one whom you have identified as Lee
Harvey Oswald, did they ever get out of the automobile?
A: Not while I was there, no.
Q: So they were sitting in the automobile when you were looking? Is that right?
A: That is right.
Q: So you had no way of knowing how tall or how short either one of them was? Is that correct?
A: That is right.
Q: Tell me this, Mr. Collins, what is the main point of identification that you discovered after studying this picture with respect to Mr. Shaw?
A: Well, I saw his face and the gray hair and the build of his shoulders.
Q: You saw the gray hair, his face, and the width of the shoulders? Is that correct?
THE COURT: Build.
BY MR. DYMOND:
Q: -- the build of his shoulders?
A: Yes.
Q: Didn't you testify a few minutes ago he had a hat on?
A: Yes.
Q: How did you see the gray hair through the hat?
A: The hat didn't completely cover his head.
Q: Oh, I see. So you mean he had some gray --
A: Right.
Q: -- down around the temples? Is that right?
A: Right.
Q: And that is one of your main points of identification? Is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, was this automobile to your right or to your left as you were looking at it?
A: To my right or to my left?
Q: That is correct.
A: I don't remember.
Q: You don't remember whether it was to your right or to your left?
A: No.
Q: Was it parked on the same street on which you were standing in front of the Registrar's Building?
A: That is right.
Q: Was it on the other side of the street or your side of the street?
A: It was on my side of the street.
Q: And you don't recall whether it was to your right or to your left, is that correct?
A: No, because I wasn't necessarily standing in one position at all times.
Q: Now, laterally, that is, how far down the street or up the street from where you were standing was the car parked?
A: How far up the street or down the street?
Q: That is correct.
A: I don't know.
Q: Well, you can estimate, can't you?
A: Then I couldn't be sure.
Q: I am not asking you to be sure, I am asking you to estimate.
A: How far up or down the street?
Q: That is correct.
A: It is about a car length.
Q: About a car length. Well, what would make up the rest?
A: From the position where I was standing, it was about --
Q: What would make up the rest of the 20 or 30 feet that you said separated you?
A: Because I was on an angle from the car.
Q: So if you don't remember whether the car was parked to the right or to the left of you, you wouldn't remember whether you were looking at the front or the back of these men, would you?
A: Yes, I was looking at the front.
Q: Well, if you can remember that, why can't you remember in which direction the car was parked?
A: In which direction the car was parked?
Q: That is right, whether it was to your right or to your left.
A: I can't answer that.
Q: You can't answer that?
MR. SCIAMBRA: I don't believe the witness understands the question, because I don't believe Mr. Dymond knows what position he is talking about.
MR. DYMOND: If the Court please, the witness answered that he couldn't answer that, he didn't make any complaint about understanding.
BY THE COURT:
Q: Did you understand the question, Mr. Collins?
A: Not truly.
THE COURT: Can you rephrase the question?
MR. DYMOND: I ask that it be read back.
THE COURT: Read it back.
(Whereupon, the aforegoing question and answer were read back by the Reporter as follows:
"Q: That is right, whether it was to your right or to your left.
"A: I can't answer that.")
THE COURT:
That is your answer.
BY MR. DYMOND:
Q: Was this a bright sunny day or a rainy day?
A: It wasn't raining.
Q: Was the sun shining?
A: I can't say for sure whether the sun was shining.
Q: What day of the week was this?
A: It would have been on -- I don't know the exact day.
Q: Now, the two men that you saw in this automobile, commencing with the one whom you have identified as this Defendant, would you describe the clothing that he wore?
A: The two men in the automobile?
Q: Yes.
A: From what I could see they both had on coat and shirt.
Q: Is that they best you can do, or can you tell us the color of their --
A: No, I can't tell you the color of their garments.
Q: Now, the one who was sitting on the passenger side, did he have on a hat or not?
A: No, he didn't have on a hat.
Q: Did you hear about that?
A: I didn't say he had on --
Q: You are sure you didn't see him with it?
A: I didn't see him with a hat on.
Q: Now, before coming into court today, had you ever seen this Defendant Clay Shaw before in your life other than this time that you claim to have seen him in Clinton?
A: Before today?
Q: That is right.
A: Yes.
Q: When?
A: When the trial first began.
Q: When the trial first began?
A: I mean the selection of the jury then.
Q: All right. In other words, you are talking about the 21st --
A: Yes.
Q: -- of January?
A: Whichever the day was, yes, sir.
Q: Was he pointed out to you?
A: No, he wasn't pointed out to me.
Q: He wasn't pointed out to you? You saw him here in court at that time? Is that correct?
A: That is right.
Q: And I would take it that according to your testimony you had not seen this defendant between 1963 and January 21, 1969, is that correct?
A: That is right.
Q: And you say it is the same man? Right?
A: That is right.
MR. DYMOND: That is all.
MR. SCIAMBRA: No further questions, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Do you have any further need of Mr. Collins?
MR. SCIAMBRA: No further need, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Do you, Mr. Dymond?
MR. DYMOND: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: You are excused.
(Witness excused.)
MR. ALCOCK: As I appreciate it, the Court had announced that we would terminate at 5:30. I would like to suggest that perhaps we not call the next witness at this time rather than break up the direct or cross-examination.
THE COURT: I will accede to your request. I would like to make a statement off the record.
(Statement of the Court off the record.)
THE COURT: As I have in the past so many times, and will again every time you leave to go at night or leave the court, I must admonish you and instruct you not to discuss the case among yourselves. Even if you get away from the Sheriff, do not discuss it among yourselves. We never know when someone may overhear you, and if you do discuss it, it is reversible error and we will have it to do all over again. Do not discuss the case among yourselves or with any other person.
You will now be retired for the night. If there are any special needs that you gentlemen have, let these officers who are in charge of you know about it. If they cannot supply your need, see me and I will see if I can get it for you.
It is now 5:25. I will turn you over to the safekeeping of the representatives of the Sheriff's Office. Let everybody be seated until the Jury leaves. We now stand adjourned until 9:00 o'clock tomorrow morning.
.... Thereupon, at 5:25 o'clock p.m., the proceedings herein were adjourned to Friday, February 7, 1969 at 9:00 o'clock a.m.....
C E R T I F I C A T E
I, the undersigned, Helen R. Dietrich, do hereby certify:
That the above and foregoing (132 pages of typewritten matter) is a true and correct transcription of the stenographic notes of the proceedings had herein, the same having been taken down by me and transcribed under my supervision, on the day and date hereinbefore noted, in the Criminal District Court for the Parish of Orleans, State of Louisiana, in the matter of State of Louisiana vs. Clay L. Shaw, 198-059 1426 (30) Section "C" on the 6th day of February,1969, before the Honorable Edward A. Haggerty, Jr., Judge, Section "C", the same being an excerpt of the proceedings as to certain witnesses contained in the index hereof.
New Orleans, Louisiana, this 23rd day of May, 1969.
/s/ Helen R. Dietrich
HELEN R. DIETRICH
Reporter