March 16, 1967
ORLEANS PARISH GRAND JURY
PROCEEDINGS OF
MARCH 16, 1967
PRESENT:
MESSRS. RICHARD BURNES AND JOHN VOLZ,
ASSISTANT DISTRICT ATTORNEYS
MEMBERS OF THE ORLEANS PARISH GRAND JURY
WITNESSES:
DEAN A. ANDREWS, JR.
THOMAS LOUIS CLARK
FENNER O. SEDGEBEER
Reported By:
Maureen B. Thiel
Secretary,
Orleans Parish Grand Jury
DEAN A. ANDREWS, being duly sworn by the Foreman of the Orleans Parish Grand Jury, was questioned and answered as follows:
BY MR. RICHARD BURNES:
Q. Please state your name.
A. Dean A. Andrews, Jr.
Q. Are you an attorney and a member of the La. Bar Association?
A. Yes.
Q. As such, are you ware of your rights under the US Constitution, Fifth Amendment, and the similar amendment under the La. Constitution, not to answer any questions which might incriminate you?
A. I understand.
Q. I want to ask you a few questions. First, would you state where you live?
A. Apt. 123, Whitney Place Apartments, 2404 Veterans Highway, Metairie, La.
Q. And where did you live in 1963?
A. 207 Metairie Lawn, or 205 -- I forget which.
Q. How long did you live there?
A. All my life.
Q. And you don't remember the address where you lived?
A. We have one house on one side and one on the other side, and I lived in both of them -- I don't know which one during the year [1963], the estate house on my dad's estate.
Q. But you did live at both of the addresses?
A. Yes. We call it the corner of Vivian and Metry Lawn. That's the only corner I have ever been living on in all my life.
Q. Now, in 1963, did you have a law practice?
A. Yes.
Q. Where was your place of practice?
A. 627 Maison Blanche Building.
Q. In the course of your practice, did you ever have occasion to see Lee Harvey Oswald?
A. At the time I saw him I did not know he was Lee Harvey Oswald. The answer to your question would be yes, but at that time, I did not know he was Lee Harvey Oswald.
Q. When was the first time you saw Mr. Oswald?
A. In a checked copy of the Warren Report you all have and never gave back to me so I could find out.
Q. Well, I don't see any objection -- do you gentlemen see any objection?
A. I loaned it to the Big Giant -- he ought to give it back to me -- it belongs to me. And I see by here that I lived at 207 Metairie Lawn.
Q. Mr. Andrews, what I am interested in now is when you first saw Lee Harvey Oswald or the man you later identified as Lee Harvey Oswald.
A. Sometime in the summer of '63.
Q. Where did you have occasion to see Lee Harvey Oswald?
A. 627 Maison Blanche Bldg.
Q. Was it in a professional capacity?
A. Yes.
Q. Did he come by to see you?
A. Yes.
Q. Would you tell the Jury in your own words the circumstances of your visit?
A. About 5:00 or 5:30 in the evening, my desk sits just like I am sitting now -- it faces through a little hall, the reception room. I guess it was around 5:30 in the evening, and approximately five people came in, three of them were fags and one was, what I believe to be a Mex, with a butch haircut, and the other was the person I know now to be Lee Harvey Oswald.
Q. And what was the purpose of the visit?
A. I don't recall what the fags said. I don't know whether they got busted or whether I was to defend them in a case or not. I don't recall. They came in first, went to the reception room, and the person I now know to be Lee Harvey Oswald and this Latin type, or Mex with the butch haircut, came into the office. The Mex sat in a chair to the front of my desk on my right, and Lee Harvey Oswald sat in the chair to my left.
Q. Now, my question as to the purpose of this visit, who did you talk with at this time?
A. Mex never said a word. I talked to the three gay kids, but I don't recall the context of the conversation with them; the reason why I remember the context of what I spoke with Lee Oswald was that he had asked me about a lesser than honorable discharge, and I did not know how to go about doing that. He asked me about his citizenship status, and he asked me about the citizenship status of his wife. He asked me about the steps of procedure to obtain a visa into Mexico.
Q. Did you state that the person you call Mex did or did not have a butch haircut?
A. He did.
Q. He did have a butch haircut?
A. Best as I can recall.
Q. Is this a clear picture in your mind?
A. Let me see what I said in there [the Warren Report]. 'Cause you are four years behind them people.
Q. Well, my question is -- I will let you see this [the Warren Report] -- but is this a clear picture in your mind or not?
A. I have no present recollection or a clear picture in my mind. This is four years old.
Q. You were stating that he . . .
A. As I recall, but you asked me if I got a clear picture -- I mean, the guy was just a guy who just walked in the office -- I had no reason to mark him in my memory. He had a butch haircut.
Q. He had a butch haircut?
A. Right.
Q. Did you discuss anything with Oswald at this time?
A. The first time?
Q. Right.
A. Yes, the three subjects I told you about, four subjects. He didn't have a battleship discharge, he wanted to know his citizenship status, 'cause he claimed he had waived it, he had an alien wife, and he wanted to know how to get into Mexico.
Q. Did you see any of these people you call fags who came into your office -- were they male or female?
A. They were male.
Q. Did you have occasion to see any of them at a later date?
A. Nobody asked me that, I don't know.
Q. Well, I am asking you now -- did you have occasion to see any of them at a later date?
A. I don't know. I could have and could not have -- I don't recall.
Q. Did you have occasion to see any of the fags, or gay kids, at the First District Precinct at a time when a large arrest was made?
A. I'd have to refrsh my memory with the Warren Report. I don't have any present recollection of it now.
Q. Well, do you recall discussing this same matter under a District Attorney subpoena about a week or ten days ago? In the DA's office?
A. I recall discussing many things, but not this particular subject. I think we asked for a transcript so that I could check myself.
Q. Well, do you recall answering our questions at that time about whether or not you saw these subjects at a later time?
A. If you asked me the question, I am sure I answered it, but I do not recall the context or the words you asked me -- I was in there two and a half hours. You all asked me plenty things.
Q. Is it possible, Mr. Andrews, that you have forgotten since you spoke to us in the District Attorney's Office?
A. No, I haven't forgotten, but I am only a human being -- I cannot remember two and a half hours of conversation with anybody. I don't believe anybody else could, either.
Q. Do you believe that looking at this Report would refresh your memory?
A. It would refresh my memory as to the Warren Report, not as to the questions and answers you people asked me under the DA's subpoena. My memory is refreshed now.
Q. Did you have occasion to see any of these subjects subsequent to the time you saw them in your office, excluding Lee Oswald?
A. My recollection is the same as what's in the Warren Commission's Report, and that is that I had gone down to the First District for the three that I represented -- as I recall then and as I recall now, I think they had a scoop or a raid -- had a whole pile of them down there.
Q. Well, a pile -- about how many?
A. Well, I said in the Warren Report approximately fifty.
Q. Approximately fifty subjects were arrested at one time, is that correct?
A. I don't know whether they were arrested or not, they were down there.
Q. In police custody?
A. Yes.
Q. Would you tell us what you know about the number of suspects being in police custody?
A. I don't remember -- I went down there to see three clients. I used the term fifty and I used the term scoop because, like any examiner they push, they press, they look for little bitty holes that at the time I never even thought important.
Q. The question is, where did you see these gay kids after the first time? Answer: Mr. Andrews: The First Police Precinct, the police picked them up wearing clothes of the opposite sex. Question: how many of them were there? Answer: about fifty. Now, these fifty subjects you were referring to then, were any of the subjects in your office among that group of fifty subjects?
A. I think three.
Q. You think three -- were they all males?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recall Andrew Sciambra discussing with you the fact that in the arrest of fifty subjects, forty-nine were female and one was male?
A. No, I don't recall.
Q. You don't recall discussing that in the District Attorney's Office?
A. No, I recall Moo Moo [Sciambra] telling me that he had checked the list of arrests, and all he could find was a (inaudible) on prostitution -- he couldn't find any arrests on fags. I recall that.
Q. When did you have occasion to see Oswald after he was in your office?
A. I don't recall.
Q. You don't recall seeing him again?
A. Yes, he was there maybe four or five times. All told.
Q. Was the Mexican subject with him?
A. Yes.
Q. Each time?
A. Every time I would see this person, the Mex was with him.
Q. Now, did Oswald owe you any money?
A. Yes. Never paid me.
Q. How much?
A. $5.00 a visit.
Q. Did you have occasion to see him at a time not in your office?
A. I saw him, I think, in front of the Maison Blanche Bldg., as I recall, on the Dauphine St. side, giving out circulars.
Q. What kind of circulars?
A. I guess the ones he was pushing, I didn't pay too much attention to him -- all I know is I jumped him for my money -- I said, you are working now, give me my bread, or words to that effect.
Q. What did he say?
A. I don't recall.
Q. You don't recall what he said?
A. No, he didn't pay me.
Q. He didn't pay you?
A. No -- not that I recall. No money.
Q. About what size were the circulars he was handing?
A. They were little hand chits.
Q. What color were they?
A. I don't recall the color.
Q. You don't recall the color?
A. No -- they would give them to people who would drop them on the ground -- I think black and white, I am not sure.
Q. Was anyone with Oswald at this time?
A. No, he was standing out there, giving them out -- as I swung to go into the office, the Mex was standing against one of Maison Blanche's display windows.
Q. The same Mex that you had seen in your office?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, were you shown a picture and asked to identify this subject?
A. Nobody has ever showed me a picture of him.
Q. Were you shown a pictuire and asked if it was a picture of him?
A. Ah, I wish I had a nickel for every time somebody showed me a picture.
Q. Let me be more specific. Were you shown a picture in the District Attorney's Office and asked whether or not this was the Mexican you saw in your office? With Lee Harvey Oswald -- the same Mexican or Cuban that you saw in your office?
A. Yes, I was shown a picture in the District Attorney's Office.
Q. Did you examine the picture?
A. Yes.
Q. Is this the picture?
A. You all showed me a picture with Ferrie and a guy standing by a plane, but this ain't the picture you showed me.
Q. This is not the picture we showed you?
A. No. The boy was on the left hand side, and Ferrie was on the right hand side, and Ferrie had a jacket on, and the plane was a black plane, and he was standing by the left wing.
Q. The plane was a black plane?
A. As I recall it.
Q. Did we also show you a little color photograph?
A. Probably, I don't remember.
Q. Was it the same as the large picture?
A. I don't remember.
Q. You don't remember whether or not we showed you a small color photograph very similar to this picture, with two men in it and a plane in the background?
A. You could have, I just don't remember. The picture I remember is the one where the boy is standing to the left of Ferrie, Ferrie had on a jacket, the boy had on a jacket similar to this here, but they were reversed.
Q. Could this be the same picture here, but with the negative printed backwards, a mirror image of it?
A. I don't know. I would say no. Now, it may be this little picture that you are talking about, this may be a reproduction of it, but this is not the picture -- this picture was about this big that you all showed me. The same people are in it now.
Q. Did Ferrie have on a jacket, you stated?
A. I recall -- I think I recall. I could be wrong.
Q. And you do not recall that we showed you a small color picture, print, of the same?
A. I guess you did -- I don't remember.
Q. How many pictures did we show you -- total, roughly? It would not be over half dozen, would it?
A. I don't think it would be that many.
Q. In fact, it wouldn't be over three, would it?
A. It could be -- counting this one I never saw until now, to my knowledge. If this is a reproduction of the little one, I didn't pay too much attention to the little one, because we were looking for detail in the big one. As I recall, the Mex looks something like this boy here, but I couldn't tell on the picture you all showed me, because I couldn't see his neck.
Q. Mr. Andrews, did we ask you to describe the Mexican?
A. When -- at the time you all were questioning me?
Q. Yes.
A. You probably did. I don't remember.
Q. Would you describe him for us now?
A. Give me the Warren Report. I wouldn't even try now. Everybody has jumped on me about discrepanices and what I have done.
Q. Are you saying now that you have no recollection at all of his possible height?
A. I can guess -- but you all will put me in the jackpot like everybody else did -- the (inaudible) people crawled all over me 'cause one time I told them somebody was six foot one -- the Warren Commission jumped on my butt because I told them he was 5'8" -- and I tell you like I [sic] other people -- I don't measure them.
Q. Now, can you tell us whether he was an extremely tall man or an extremely short man?
A. I am afraid to say the size -- I got in all kinds of humbug with that -- he was a well built, athletic type boy who looks like he could handle himself real good -- I'd hate to go fist city with him -- he was some well built -- he was athletic build -- I wish I was in that condition.
Q. And that was the example used in the Warren Report -- that he looked like he could build a fist city pretty well.
A. Oh, I remember that -- I wouldn't want to tangle with him.
Q. Now, would you compare him with the size of someone in the DA's Office?
A. Moo Moo [Andrew Sciambra].
Q. That's right. So you do have a pretty good idea of the physical description.
A. Well, he was about an inch taller than Moo Moo -- built better than Moo Moo.
Q. About how tall is Moo Moo?
A. Now you've got me guessing again -- I don't know how tall Moo Moo is -- I guess 5'8", 5'9" --
Q. And weight?
A. I would say this chap was about 175 -- I don't know -- I am just guessing.
Q. If you were describing the height of the Cuban or Mexican subject with Lee Oswald in your office, and you were describing the same subject with Lee Oswald handing out pamphlets, which you refer to as the Mexican --
A. He was the one standing by the window -- he was not handing out pamphlets.
Q. If you were attempting to describe the height of this subject -- now I know you cannot see this subjkect's feet in here -- but he is standing next to Dave Ferrie, and you do know Dave Ferrie --
A. He is similar built to the Mex that was in the office, with the exception of two things I don't recall -- I can't tell by the light -- I think possibly complexion and the haircut -- generally that boy fits into the description.
Q. Has the approximate height?
A. Approximate [sic] the same.
Q. Approximate [sic] the same weight?
A. It appears to be the same weight.
Q. Then you have approximately the same complexion.
A. I can't tell -- my recollection -- and I could be in error -- the Mex was a little darker than him, but that could be light -- I don't know.
Q. That's the time we brought you the color print to examine.
A. I really don't remember.
Q. You don't remember when we showed you the color print?
A. I remember your all giving me some picture -- I remember the point of discussion with the pictures that I examined was that the boy had on a polo shirt, he's got a real athletic neck like a tree trunk, when you take those exercises, your neck swells out and you got real strong neck [sic].
Q. This could be the subject? Is that correct?
A. I couldn't say that -- I say he appears to be the same general build --
Q. Is there anything on this subject that you can say he is not the subject [sic]?
A. I can't say he is -- I can't say he ain't. All I can say is he has the same general characteristics as the boy I identified as Mex.
Q. My question is not whether you can say this is the subject or is not the subject -- my question is, is there anything about this subject by which you can positively say that this is not the subject? This is not the Mex?
A. Yeah, he doesn't have a butch haircut.
Q. And what else?
A. I still can't see his neck. See, this boy had on a polo shirt, and his arms and body are covered -- that is the only thing.
Q. From the things you can see, is there anything besides the haircut you can say this is not the subject [sic]?
A. Possibly the complexion.
Q. Is there anything else?
A. Man, the time I say this guy he just another guy [sic] There is nothing else, Dick.
Q. That is what I have been wanting you to say -- yes or no --
A. I can't say yes or no -- it's my bad luck that the cat walked in my office --
Q. After seeing Lee Oswald on the street passing out pamphlets, did you have occasion to see him again?
A. No.
Q. Were you contacted by anyone subsequent to that time?
A. Clay Bertrand.
Q. When?
A. 4:30 -- around 4:30, just before chow time at Hotel Dieu. It's a Saturday -- and I was hungry, I remember that. I was listening for the chow cart to come down the hall.
Q. Can you be more specific in regard to perhaps the year?
A. '63.
Q. The month?
A. November.
Q. The date?
A. Saturday, right after the President got assassinated.
Q. Was Oswald living at this time?
A. I don't know whether he was or he wasn't. Yes, Saturday, he was living.
Q. Now, what was the nature of your being contacted by Clay Bertrand at this time?
A. You are the only guy in all of them that ever asked me that. I'll elucidate -- like in Enrico Caruso --
Q. You mean that you have never been asked why Clay Bertrand contacted you?
A. That's right. You're the first one who ever asked me.
Q. How about the Warren Committee [sic]?
A. No, they contacted [sic] it a different way -- they got an answer out of me, but they never got the whole thing --
Q. All right -- would you tell us . . .
A. A voice that I identify as Clay Bertrand called me at the hospital and asked me if I would represent Lee Oswald in Dallas -- nobody ever asked me about a fee or anything else -- he said I would get real famous, and he would get in touch with Lee Oswald so that I could represent him. That's the part nobody ever asked me. As soon as I said I heard the voice of Clay Bertrand -- blump [sic] -- they all cut off. You're the first one who ever asked me for the whole bit.
Q. Now, what did you tell this subject?
A. I told him I was in the hospital and couldn't go.
Q. Now, you stated that you recognized the voice as Clay Bertrand. Did you tell anyone Clay Bertrand had called you?
A. Yes.
Q. Who was the first person you told? If you can recall.
A. Let's see -- called my secretary, right after that, told her we were going to Dallas to defend Oswald, and she wanted to quit -- I don't remember -- no, she didn't want to quit, I remember now -- Sgt. Davis, my office man, he came in to visit me, I told him, I think I called Monk [Zelden] on Sunday -- told Monk could he go cover for me in Dallas . . .
Q. How did you tell . . .
A. Now, wait a minute, I'm running it down -- I never told Monk Clay Bertrand called me.
Q. You never told Monk?
A. The first one I spoke to, I think, and told them that was John Rice's Secret Service on Monday, Regis Kennedy of the FBI on Monday.
Q. Did this voice identify himself as Clay Bertrand?
A. No.
Q. Is there any doubt in your mind as to whether this is Clay Bertrand?
A. At that time, no. That's a long time ago -- it's been a long time.
Q. You state that it has been a long time -- if there was no doubt, would you have asked the party his name?
A. No.
Q. If the subject contacted you to represent Lee Oswald and you had doubt as to who he was . . .
A. I had no doubt, Dick. We don't have to play games.
Q. You had no doubt at all?
A. At the time I got this call there was no doubt.
Q. Had you spoken to Clay Bertrand on the phone previously?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recall the first time you had occasion to speak to him on the telephone?
A. No. Not now -- what did I say in the -- you got an extra copy of that, my copy that you all have been photostating [sic] -- everybody asks me questions and don't [sic] let me read my own copy.
Q. Well, I believe my copy came from the Warren Commission itself -- our copy upstairs.
A. You all have my copy and never gave it back to me.
Q. Let me restate the question -- I am not trying to refresh your memory back to 1963. But less than ten days ago . . .
A. No, but if I had -- I'd get in all kinds of humbug --
Q. Weren't you asked in our office the first time if you contacted Clay Bertrand?
A. Among the many, many questions, Dick, you probably asked me that, but I don't recall. If I have a transcript, I could hit it off right now. There is [sic] discrepancies in this Warren Report.
Q. Yes, but my question is whether or not, less than ten days ago, we asked you in our office if you recall the first time you spoke to Clay Bertrand on the telephone, and you gave us an answer at that time.
A. Well, I don't recall it -- Dick, two and a half hours -- you all popped questions like popcorn pops -- that's the way you all asked questions, and I don't recall -- you probably did, but I don't recall.
Q. Did you answer to the best of your ability at the time?
A. Yes, I ain't got nothing to hide.
Q. And you don't recall the first time you spoke to Clay Bertrand?
A. Where page [sic] is it in the Warren [sic] -- what page you reading off?
Q. I don't even know whether it is in the Warren Report --
A. You all got me at a disadvantage here.
Q. Let me ask another question. Can you remember any time speaking to Clay Bertrand on the telephone?
A. Can I tell you generally without getting guilty of perjury?
Q. Yes -- I wish you would.
A. Look, Dick, here's my problem. Since '63 I have been hounded and plagued, investigated, by investigators, book writers, researchers, by all kinds of people and basically they ask me the same questions as you, and I have said many, many things, not trying to lie, trying to do the best I can -- everybody wants an answer -- I do the best I can -- now I am getting caught, and I am getting gun-shy. It isn't that I am trying to hold back anything -- Mark Lane, who wrote Rush to Judgment -- I turned down 5,000 [dollars?] to get in with him -- he wanted to take my picture, asked me all kinds of questions -- all them people . . .
Q. I am sure you have these things you mention plaguing your memory, but my question is that you recognized Clay Bertrand's voice over the telephone . . .
A. I talked to him about ten or twelve times.
Q. All right. Will you tell the gentlemen the nature of your conversations with him?
A. He guaranteed payment for whatever services I was performing for whatever people called.
Q. That is rather broad -- is it a particular category of people, or . . .
A. They were gay people.
Q. You mean homosexuals? That you represented?
A. Man, they bat off both sides of the plate -- I don't know what they do -- I don't keep score -- they just walk in the office --
Q. You stated that he guaranteed payment -- will you tell the Grand Jury the circumstances under which he guaranteed the payment?
A. Some of them would be passing an act of sale on a car, some of them would be swapping radios, or Tvs, and some in trouble with the law.
Q. Now, my questions -- question isn't the difficulty your client was in -- my question is, please give the gentlemen of the Jury the circumstances under which the conversations and the time when and how he guaranteed payment?
A. I see -- now we come to the real issue in the office, like bread, you know, who can pay the fee -- you holding anything, no -- who you holding that I know -- they go to the phone and dial, sometimes they would ask for Clay Bertrand by name -- is Clay there, or if Clay answered the phone, assuming it was Clay, they would talk to him. I would pick up the phone and he would say book the action, or whatever he said, I didn't pay no particular attention to it. He guaranteed payment.
Q. What was the substance of your conversation with him on the phone?
A. That's all.
Q. In other words, your clients --
A. Saw the guy twice in my life.
Q. Clay Bertrand would guarantee payment.
A. Right.
Q. These clients -- were they more or less regular clients, or would they be occasional clients?
A. Occasional clients. Everybody lays emphasis on my business with fags -- maybe I represented forty of them, I don't know, in my whole legal career. It just happened that these particular individuals would come in -- they can't be that many of them [sic], for I can only recall at the most, stretching my memory as far as it will go, talking with this stud ten or twelve times.
Q. Were these people you could easily locate if he didn't pay you?
A. Man, you got to be joking. Heck, no. These people flee the scene -- the answer is negative, they change and move, they follow a little circuit, they're in New Orleans, they go to Frisco, they go to Chicago, they go to New York, Miami -- they come here -- that's the five bases for them to go. They're drifters.
Q. If these subjects who have come into your office and do not make payment, and you were not able to locate them, then you would look to Clay Bertrand, is that correct?
A. Well, as best as I can recall -- they asked me the same question in a different way in the Warren Report. The way they asked was, did Clay Bertrand owe me any money. The best I can say is a couple of them jumped bond or did something, and you down and you pay the little fine, and then you try to collect a hundred and half off them for jumping the bond -- everybody does that.
Q. Yes, but my question is that if these subjects did not pay you, you would look to Clay Bertrand for the money, is that right?
A. I would send word to him I didn't get my bread, yes, indeed.
Q. How would you send word to him?
A. One of the fags.
Q. And would you tell them where to go? Or would they know?
A. No, I'd say tell the man I want my money.
Q. If a subject did not pay you, and you wanted to get your money, how would you locate Clay Bertrand?
A. Let me tell you how these play. You all think this is like the National Bank of Commerce, you know, you walk in there and you get signators -- well, it doesn't work like that -- they come in there and they pay you a fen [sic] or ten dollars or something on account, sometimes they don't show up at all. I never paid particular attention to them.
Q. My question is this: if they did not pay you . . .
A. What do you want to find out?
Q. How would you contact Clay Bertrand?
A. I don't recall ever getting in contact with him. If you want to know how I would do it, I'd send word through one of the people I knew in the gay circles.
Q. In other words, the guarantor of the fee was a person you could not contact or locate if you had to?
A. That's right.
Q. Now, have you ever seen Clay Bertrand?
A. As I can recall, I saw him twice.
Q. Did you have occasion to see him before he guaranteed some of those fees?
A. Now you've gone back [sic] '56 or '57. I think that's the first time -- some place around there, '58, first time I saw him.
Q. Was that before he guaranteed some of these fees?
A. Right.
Q. And you say the first time you saw him was '56 or '57?
A. '58 or '59, somewhere along there. I tell you how I can remember it. It was in the Rendezvouz Bar; two fags were getting married and used Miller High Life for beer -- and it bubbled like champagne. So naturally I drank up their beer and ate their refreshments, and you mingle around and you meet people, one of whom was Clay Bertrand.
Q. You say it was in the Rendezvouz Bar?
A. The Rendezvouz Bar, where the Red Garter is now.
Q. Have you ever been able to give that location to the Warren Commission people or us previously?
A. Nobody asked me.
Q. Nobody in our office asked where you saw him the first time?
A. Well, if you did, I told you what I'm telling you now.
Q. Now, what were the circumstances of your meeting -- were you introduced to him, or what -- if you can remember?
A. Well, I told you -- two of the kids got married, just like a wedding reception. You mingle around, you drink, same bit, meet so and so, meet so and so -- and I'm hustling business like any enterprising young lawyer, I don't belong to Deutsch, Kerrigan & Stiles, you know. I ain't got no retainers.
Q. Now, did you have occasion to see him at another time?
A. Yes.
Q. When?
A. Overload my mouth with the Warren Commission, tell them I going to find who killed the President, and who did this and who did that . . . so go looking for this cat . . . think I saw him in a joint, the guy I believe to be Clay Bertrand, thought I spotted him in a joint on Bourbon St. or Burgundy St. . . .
Q. Let me ask you something -- when you were referring to your overloading your mouth to the Warren Commission, is the part you are referring to: "Mr. Andrews, do you remember telling the FBI you would not be able to recognize him again if you saw him?" Answer: "Probably did, been a long time -- there are three people I am goign to see . . ."
A. No, man . . .
Q. "One of them is the real guy that killed the President, the Mexican, and Clay Bertrand . . ." Is that the part you are talking about?
A. No, man, the last part, the first part you can throw out. I couldn't care less about that.
Q. You mean to suggest that statement that "you have considerable doubt in your mind that Oswald killed the President, Mr. Andrews?" Answer: "I know good and well he did not." "And he did."
A. Where is that? What page? The only part I made a mistake in was telling them I was going to find who killed the President, I was going to find a Mexican, or something else. Where is that page?
Q. Page six, near the top.
A. Into each life, some rain must fall . . . it sure did.
Q. Did you state, "I know good and well he did not"? Is that what you are talking about?
A. Yes, but that's my opinion. I ain't got no personal knowledge.
Q. It's not really true, then?
A. In my opinion it's true.
Q. Well, is it true that you know he did not?
A. No, man, let's quit being facetious. The answer is negative. If I knew, I would have put down like a thousand pound canary. That's my opinion. I based that on looking at the boy and some knowledge of weapons I had in the service. The weapon wasn't capable and the man wasn't capable. And out of all the crud and crap, I lucked up on one point, the weapon wasn't capable, they had to go put shins on it, [re]pa[ir] the front sights, do all kinds of things to it before the experts could fire it. But that is my opinion. I don't know who killed Number One. If I did, I would have went and sang like a canary along time ago. I like this country too, you know.
Q. The second time you saw Clay Bertrand, where was the location?
A. In a joint I know as Cosimo's, I don't recall whether it's on Bourbon St. or down by Esplanade, Burgundy or Dauphine, one of them.
Q. What was Clay Bertrand doing when you saw him this time?
A. Sitting down.
Q. Doing what?
A. Just sitting down.
Q. Inside this establishment?
A. I came in the front door and I spied what I thought was Clay Bertrand, and as I moved toward him, he jumped up, went out the side door and fled the scene.
Q. Which direction did he go?
A. Esplanade.
Q. On what street?
A. I don't recall. I thought it was Cosimo's. I've been looking for the place -- I think the place went out of business.
Q. Did you tell us the other day that he went on Dauphine?
A. Whatever I told, I told you. I don't have the benefit of the transcript. I don't know what I told you.
Q. Is that close to where Clay Shaw lives?
A. At that time I didn't know where Clay Shaw lived.
Q. Well, do you know now?
A. Yes -- 1313 Dauphine.
Q. Is that close to where Clay Shaw lives?
A. I guess about two blocks -- three blocks.
Q. Did he go in the direction of Clay Shaw's house?
A. No, he went straight up Esplanade.
Q. Towards Esplanade?
A. Yes.
Q. On Dauphine?
A. I don't know if it's Dauphine; if that is the street I told you all, that's the street. But I don't know, I know it's down there -- you ask me something in '63. I don't know whether the joint is in business or what.
Q. Were you looking for Clay Bertrand at this time?
A. Does a dog have four legs? Sure, I was looking for him.
Q. Why were you looking for him?
A. Keep me out of the jackpot.
Q. Is there any other reason?
A. None that I could think of -- everybody said he didn't exist.
Q. Did he owe you money?
A. Did he owe me money -- in the Warren Commission I said yes, he owed me money.
Q. Well, did he?
A. I guess he did at the time I said it. Yes. But [--] That is not what I was looking for him for.
Q. Do you recall being emphatic in our office that he did not owe you money?
A. What difference does it make if he owed me a quarter or not?
Q. My question is, do you recall stating in our office that he did not owe you money?
A. Give me this thing, Dick, and let me read it -- if I said it, I said it. I don't recall. You all were questioning me and asking me many questions . . .
Q. Well, that is the question. Yes or no?
A. I don't recall now.
Q. Can you describe Clay Bertrand?
A. Man, I gave you fifteen descriptions of him -- everybody asked me the same thing -- you all push [sic] for the same point when you all were questioning me.
Q. Can you describe Clay Bertrand?
A. I wouldn't even want to try. Unless somebody laid out the Warren Report, the FBI report, this report and a bunch of others -- I wouldn't even want to try. I am under oath.
Q. That is correct, and I am asking you if you can describe Clay Bertrand?
A. Well, if you will give me the documents that I used before, I will do the best I can to refresh my memory. And I'll do the best I can to describe him, because I am pushed for the description -- everybody that's ever questioned me pushes for that description -- I tell them one thing and so you said this the other time . . . Now I am in a position now [sic] where I will describe the guy if you give me my tools.
Q. Do you mean that you have been giving inconsistent replies --
A. I guess I have; that's what everybody says.
Q. Well, do you know that you have been inconsistent answers [sic]?
A. No, I don't know -- the Warren Commission wanted to report me, the FBI wanted to report me, you all wanted to report me . . . I can't tell them -- they want to know the color of his clothes, the color of his hair . . . how tall he was, how much he weighed, was he left handed, right handed, blue eyes, brown eyes . . . I can't go that route -- never could. But they keep pushing for it.
Q. The question I am asking you is from your memory, on the first occasion, when you first saw Mr. Bertrand -- in which you have just described the particular bar and the circumstances, I want you to describe the person you saw at that bar at that time and identified to you as Clay Bertrand.
A. I would have to refresh my memory with these other things, because in your office, you pushed me for a description, and I know I made some errors -- and the description I gave to the other people, I honestly can't tell you -- I am color blind and I honestly can't tell you. Everybody asks me what kind of hair he's got, and I wouldn't know, as I am color blind.
Q. You are color blind?
A. Yes.
Q. How were you able to tell the pamphlets handed out by Oswald were black and white?
A. Because they are negative colors; they are neutral.
Q. Does your color blindness reflect on your driver's license?
A. No, it is reflected on my Navy record.
Q. Do you have a driver's license?
A. Yes.
Q. How can you tell whether the light is red or green.
A. It's on the top.
Q. What is on the top?
A. Red light on top and green light on bottom.
Q. On all lights?
A. Well, for my sake, I hope they are.
Q. Do you ever drive across the Great New Orleans Mississippi River Bridge?
A. Yes.
Q. How many lights are on there?
A. None until you get off the bridge.
Q. On the approach to the bridge from the West Bridge, how many lights?
A. A whole pile of them.
Q. I am referring to the junction of the cloverleaf and the overpass --
A. I never drive on the cloverleaf; I go straight over.
Q. And you never come in contact with a single light?
A. The last light I hit is the one on Bonnabel and US 10, and I never hit another light until I get on the Expressway across the river.
Q. Let me ask you this . . .
A. Ah, come on, let's quit playing games -- let me see if I can describe Clay Bertrand.
Q. Well, that is what I asked you to do all along.
A. Well, you're pecking me like a chicken, shucking me like corn, to try to prove how color blind I am, and that ain't got nothing to do with it. Let me refresh my memory -- if I can describe the guy I will -- I ain't going to be popped up here with perjury. You have to be some kind of nut, man -- and I don't mean to say that.
Q. What makes you say you will be popped with perjury?
A. Because I am suspended from the District Attorney's Office, because RCID Department gave word to my boss that I go [sic] to jail.
Q. Why would that make you charged with perjury?
A. Well, I ain't here to play games and neither are you -- but if I make the slightest mistake, according to RCID Division, I will be put down for perjury. So the Bar suspended me. With no pay, you know.
Q. Well, will you tell me to the best of your memory the description of the person you recall seeing the first time . . .
A. I don't want to, Dick, because you all ask me a description and say hair like that . . .
Q. Mr. Andrews, I am not asking you the description you gave the Warren Commission -- and I am not asking you for the description you gave me. I ask you the description, to the best of your ability, of the person you saw the first time and who was identified to you as Clay Bertrand?
A. You all are something else -- a guy I see in '56 -- a long time ago -- now I got to describe him -- let's see, what did I tell the Warren Commission -- everybody pointed out the discrepancy in that description -- I wish I could find Clay Bertrand, would I latch on to that rascal . . . Give me a little time, and I will see what I told them in here -- and I will see what I told somebody else -- and will do the best I can -- it's all I can do. If I had my life to live over, the only thing I would change is meeting Oswald -- everything else I would go along great with. You know, my brother sends me a picture from the West Coast -- Clay Shaw appears in little bitty print and denies guilt, and me in a great big picture: Assassin suspect [sic].
Q. If you count your pages from the back, you will find on the fifth page, about two inches from the top, one of your descriptions of Clay Bertrand, and on the sixth page, about two inches from the bottom, your other description.
A. Well, the only thing I am not sure of is the hair. He is about 6'1" or 6'2", well dressed. Now, he wasn't dressed like that when I saw him the second time -- that's what I recall when I saw him the first time, he was standing up, and it was at that little fag reception. He was sitting down the second time; I don't recall the clothes, but he was 6'1" or 2" -- I said in the Warren Report brown hair -- maybe that's him, maybe not. Well dressed.
Q. You say brown hair -- yet you are color blind.
A. There we go again. They ask me the color of hair, and at that time, the best I could remember was brown. Then they told me I told (inaudible) something else.
Q. Let me ask you this -- is your color blindness a permanent thing or is it . . .
A. Well, if my wife don't lay my clothes out, I will go to work with all kinds of colors -- I will have two different color socks, a shirt and tie that don't match, and a coat and pants that don't match. Now, she don't lay them out, but I ask her to check me so that I don't walk out looking like a freak.
Q. My question is, how can you say brown if you are color blind?
A. Well, you are asking me something now in 1967 -- these people asked me something in 1963 or '64 that happened in '56 or '57. I think I am doing pretty good.
Q. Were you color blind in 1963?
A. Man, I've been color blind all my life, when I was born.
Q. Is there any way you can explain how you can give them a color and you can't give me a color?
A. Well, there wasn't no steam on then, you know. No, I can't give you any explanation. I told these people brown, let me see if I remember where this guy jumped on me . . . see if I can find it . . . I told you all a different color . . .
Q. Well, this description you have just given us, about 6'2", well dressed . . .
A. Other than the hair, it's the general description.
Q. Is that the description that you remember now of the person you originally knew as Clay Bertrand, or . . .
A. It's the best I can do then, past, present and future.
Q. On the page preceding, you gave this description. It says: "what does this guy look like?" -- says "he is 5'8", got sandy hair, blue eyes, ruddy complexion, must weigh about 165, 170 or 175 -- he really took off, that rascal." Were you referring to . . .
A. Where?
Q. Sixth page from the back, about two inches from the bottom.
A. Yes.
Q. Is this the same subject you were describing?
A. It can't be, from the description. That's obvious. Let's say this, I am confused in the description, Dick, but this man is bigger than 5'8'. I think he has a ruddy complexion, yes, I said that . . . you all have it underlined, 5'8", blue eyes, ruddy complexion -- mix it all together, take 6' . . . Dick, I can't remember the color of the hair -- I am just wasting your time and mine . . . but he is at least 6'1" or 6'2", he is bigger than 5'8", that's for sure, 'cause he is bigger than Moo Moo, and if I am using Moo Moo as a guide, then he will stand over Moo Moo.
Q. Mr. Andrews, I want you to fix in your mind the description you have from your memory, and it has been refreshed by our interview in our office and your having these two descriptions here, and with your recalling the first time and the second time that you saw Clay Bertrand -- fix that description in your mind, if you will, please.
A. Which one, I give two here. And three in your office.
Q. Did you ever have a description in your mind?
A. This would be my desscription of him, irrespective of what I told anybody. He is about 6'1" or 6'2", the weight I ain't too sure of, 'cause only time I saw him standing up was when he was dressed [sic], say about 170 pounds, ruddy complexion, got blue eyes. See, I am just wasting your time.
Q. Why do you say blue eyes?
A. 'Cause that's what I said here, and I think that's correct.
Q. Well, I know but you explained that they pressured you . . .
A. I am doing the best I can; if you don't like it, I'm sorry . . . take your best ole pardner [sic].
Q. Well, can you tell . . .
A. I'm doing the best I can -- you're pumping me with the description that I gave you when you put the DA subpoena on me -- you're bumping [sic] me with a description I gave the Warren Committee [sic] -- for a man I met in '56, '57, very casually. Just like any of you all go to a wedding reception, you meet people, or you go to a funeral, you meet people . . . you've never seen them before, some impress you, some don't, for some reason or other everybody wants a precise description of the guy, so me, like a big fat fool, I try to cooperate, and now I'm eating my words. I am doing the best I can. If anybody here can casually go to a wedding reception in '56 or '57 and meet a bunch of people, and seven, eight, nine, ten years later, give a description, and you tell us how you do it, and I will try to do it. I can't.
Q. The question I asked you, Mr. Andrews, is not how you described him in our office or . . .
A. Well, putting all the pieces together . . .
Q. I am not asking you for the pieces, I am asking for your memory now of the best description you can give . . .
A. Well, I can't give you anything but pieces, Richard . . . that's what I am trying to tell you. When they asked me, I didn't know too good then, that's obvioous; I gave them two descriptions, and I gave the FBI, when they took their little notepad out, another description, and I am sure the description, when you all questioned me, is similar, but they are disparaging, just a little inconsistency.
Q. Inconsistency is not the question -- the question is your memory now of Clay Bertrand for a description . . .
A. It's no better, Richard, than it was when you were asking me before. I am trying to recreate something that met casually -- even the time I walked in the joint, you got to remember -- the guy walked in the door about where Mr. LaBiche is, he is sitting down, he sees me, he jumps out the side door and he runs, wham, bam, Uncle Sam. Now, I am trying to help, and I put my foot in my mouth.
Q. Putting that aside, I am asking your present memory . . .
A. I have no present memory, Dick, of this man at all, other than refreshing my present memory with what I am reading here, and if I had what I told you, I'd refresh it here. And put the thing together.
Q. But you can or cannot say he had blue eyes? To your own knowledge?
A. Not under oath. I said it to the Warren Commission.
Q. You said it here a while ago.
A. Well, all right, but you ask particulars, I am a loss --
Q. Don't you think your answer would be that I don't know what color his eyes were?
A. How can I say that when, under oath, I said they were blue?
Q. I am not asking what you gave us under oath; I am asking you to give us the truth today. You either do or you don't.
A. Back up, back up -- I ain't never gave anybody nothing [sic] but the truth. At the time I gave them. I don't play games with nobody, Richard. So don't pop the question on me; I'm giving you what I know; when I told the FBI, I believed it then; when I told the Warren Commission, I did the best I could, not the truth as I see it today, I don't buy that, big daddy.
Q. Do you know what color his eyes were?
A. Now, no. Refreshing my memory, I'd take a shot and say they were blue -- any other way I would have to tell you flat, straight no.
Q. If you were to have a physical description in your mind of Clay Bertrand, regard to height and general build, and if you were to put a physical description of Clay Shaw, whom I believe you have seen on TV, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Is there anything grossly disproportionate about the general description in regard to height of the two men?
A. He is taller.
Q. Who is taller?
A. Clay Shaw.
Q. How much?
A. I don't know.
Q. Well, can't you give an approximation?
A. An approximation. How tall is Clay Shaw? I don't know how tall Clay Shaw is.
Q. You must have some idea abotu how much taller he would be than Clay Shaw?
A. I see him on TV -- he is a tall cat -- I don't believe the person I know as Clay Bertrand is as tall as him. I don't know. I can't say yes, and I can't say no. As God is my judge. I have to go back to the same thing I am telling you -- I go to the fag wedding reception -- he is standing up and he is well dressed -- I don't measure the guy then, I don't measure him now. I don't even think about the guy. Just like you go to any wedding reception, you mingle, you drink, you talk. I had no occasion to -- to have this guy impress me.
Q. Mr. Andrews, you stated that Clay Shaw is taller.
A. Well, I am assuming that. I don't know. I see him tower over people when they put the TV camera on him, so I figure he is a tall cat.
Q. About how much taller would you say he is?
A. The general build is the same. You are asking me for height -- I can't tell you.
Q. Well, you can tell me whether it's closer to one inch or closer to eight inches, can't you?
A. How can I tell you that?
Q. Well, is he closer to four inches? Is he as much as a foot taller?
A. No.
Q. Is he as much as half a foot taller?
A. You see, man, you are like all them people, you push and push for something -- that's how I got two descriptions in here before. I don't know. I really, honestly, don't know. All I know is Clay Bertrand, the one I know, has a voice I know as an individual -- now this was '64, seven years later, when I go look for the guy that jumped up and ran out of the place -- is sitting down, and I told them 5'8" -- I got in all kinds of inconsistencies, I can't give you what you want in relationship to height, except the man is, in my opinion, that I know as Clay Bertrand, is 6'1", 6'2", in that area. I could be two inches short, I could be two inches different, I was guessing, I was guessing then and I am guessing now.
Q. Do you know Dave Ferrie?
A. Yes, I know Dave Ferrier [sic].
Q. What were the circumstances of knowing Dave Ferrie?
A. '54 to '59, I represented Carlos Marcello in his immigration matter, and I left his employ in November, October of '63 -- they shipped him off to Guatemala, and he came back from Guatemala, and the Government had him on trial for something. Dave Ferrier [sic] -- I met, I think, with Wray Gill and Carlos, and they were asking me points in the facets of the Marcello v. US that I handled in his deportation proceeding.
Q. Have you ever had occasion to do any work for Dave Ferrie?
A. No.
Q. You never represented him on anything?
A. No.
Q. Has he ever called you in behalf of a client?
A. No. Wouldn't use him if he did; he ain't the best source in town, you know.
Q. Has he ever requested you to do anything for a subject that might have been arrested?
A. No. No. The only thing I recall doing was recently, I don't know how far back, but he had an expired brake tag ticket -- and I used to run a traffic court, but I have been suspended, I don't run it no more [sic] -- think I nolle prosequied the expired brake tag; the reason was, the windshield was broken; they put in a new windshield on it, something like that' anyway, I recall nolle prosequing the expired brake tag -- the car was not his, he had borrowed it from somebody else.
Q. That was for Dave Ferrie, and you dismissed the case?
A. Right. Declined to prosecute him.
Q. Did you have occasion to parole anyone for him?
A. No.
Q. Do you know what parole power is?
A. You got to be joking. You ask me an intelligent question and I give you an intelligent answer. Sure, I know what it is.
Q. Will you tell the gentlemen what parole power is?
A. In Jefferson Parish, Assistant District Attorneys prior to January 1, 1967, were authorized to parole for purposes of making bond persons arrested and incarcerated in jail.
Q. You never paroled anyone for David Ferrie?
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. Do you know Tommy Clark?
A. No. Don't recall ever meeting anybody by that name.
Q. Thomas Clark?
A. No, can't recall. No present recollection.
Q. You did not parole a Thomas Clark or Tommy Clark for Dave Ferrie?
A. I would have to look at the books, man. You parole -- been two and a half years -- it must have been -- I must have paroled thousands of people -- if I did, I did -- if I didn't, I didn't -- I don't recall -- I have no present memory of paroling anybody for Dave Ferrier [sic]. The books down at the East Bank or West Bank would show who I paroled for, I would have to go check them. You all probably checked them already, asking me that question, I probably did; I have no present memory of it.
Q. But you stated while [sic] ago that you did not?
A. Well, I stated while ago I did not -- what difference, what difference does it make whether I did or not.
Q. Now, my question was, had you ever performed any services for Dave Ferrie, and you were emphatic in that you had not.
A. No, I am interpreting your question, services for Dave Ferrier [sic] -- legal services, not parole services. Anybody that picks up a phone is entitled to parole, I parole them to make bond or for whatever it is. Do it all day, do it all night until the Code of Criminal Practice changed. Now, if you all took the trouble to check all the paroles there, I'll go check them, I'll let you know -- I don't know now -- apparently, from the way you are putting the questions one of your investigators have -- they have been investigating me and my clients ever since.
Q. Would you call yourself a close friend of Dave Ferrie?
A. Hell, no. Close friend of Dave Ferrier's [sic] -- I don't bum in them circles -- I do what any DA has to do for a citizen -- he is entitled to his rights -- if Ferrier [sic] called me for a parole, he is entitled to one, I will parole him. If it's a parolable offense. I'll go check. When was I supposed to have paroled for Tommy Clark?
Q. My question is whether you paroled at any time for Dave Ferrie?
A. Mine is, when did I do it? I got rights, too, you know. You [sic] all looking down my throat with a loaded shotgun. Somebody has been rooting through the books with all the humbug coming on, trying to find a slightest [sic] flaw in me, and unfortunately, I ain't St. Peter. I do make my mistakes, the eraser works for me. If you say so, and somebody has gone down and checked the books now, I'd like the opportunity to go down and check the books and, and I'll flat tell you.
Q. Mr. Andrews, did I ask you in my office in regard to the physical description of Clay Bertrand and Clay Shaw, whether you could distinguish one from the other?
A. I don't recall if you put it that way, Dick. You all were supposed to give me a transcript of what I said.
Q. Did I ask you that question?
A. You probably did; I don't recall.
Q. Did you say that you could not?
A. I don't recall.
Q. And did you say that the only way you could tell the difference was by listening to the voice on the telephone?
A. Ah, that I recall. I also recall Moo Moo Sciambra and Jimmy Alcock telling me when he comes on TV, shut your eyes. I go home, he comes on, I shut my eyes, he ain't the voice.
Q. Did you also agree to call him on the telephone and listen to his voice?
A. No, I didn't agree to that. You all told Monk to call him on the phone, and I would sneak in and listen. I ain't no sneak like that, so I told Monk I wouldn't do it.
Q. What about in our office, did you tell him then? You recall, of course, that in our interview . . .
A. Well, I didn't do it. I shut my eyes like Moo Moo said, and I listned to TV; now, I understand that there is a difference in decibels and tones in a voice -- you want me to, I break my code, and I go in and listen to the guy. I ain't never did that in my life; why should I do it now?
Q. You didn't agree to do it in our office?
A. Ah, what difference does it make, man, you all want me to say something, and I can't say it.
Q. What do you mean you can't say it?
A. I get the impression you all want me to identify Clay Shaw as Clay Bertrand -- I'll be honest with you, that is the impression I get --
Q. Well?
A. And I can't. I can't say he is and I can't say he ain't.
Q. You can't say he is and you can't say he ain't?
A. Right.
Q. And that is what you told us in our office?
A. Right, and that is what I am telling you now. I cannot say positively, under oath, that heh is Clay Bertrand or he is not. Even with me listening to the guy's voice on the phone, the voice I recall is somewhat similar to this cat's voice, but his voice has overtones just like Moo Moo said, the voice I recall on the phone as Clay Bertrand is a deep, cultured, well educated voice -- he don't [sic] talk like me; he used the King's English. Everybody thinks I am holding something back -- they think I have the key to who killed Kennedy -- I wish I did; I'd sell it and make a million dollars.
Q. Mr. Andrews, did you mention Clay Bertrand's name to anybody at any time prior to the assassination of President Kennedy? To the secretary, investigator, or anybody?
A. Had no occasion to.
Q. Did you have an investigator at this time?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you indicate on any office file the name of Clay Bertrand and that he would be good for the fee?
A. I don't waste paper on people -- paper cost [sic] money --
Q. You mean you kept no records of these clients?
A. I had what you call a running deal -- Clay Bertrand wouldn't appear on it in any way. Let's say that X was one of the three people came in [sic] -- take my little notes, put them down -- that's it. I don't waste seventeen cents opening a file on them people -- put it in the running file.
Q. You didn't mention Clay Bertrand's name to anyone during the time you knew him prior to the assassination of President Kennedy, is that correct?
A. I can't say whether it is or not. I don't think I did.
Q. Did I ask you that same question in my office, and did you give me an answer?
A. I don't recall your asking me, but you must have, and I must have given you an answer. I don't recall one occasion I had to tell anybody in my office Clay Bertrand -- there I am God, I pay the rent, I am the boss, I give the orders, I do what I want. I own that joint, nobody else. I am the boss in my office.
Q. Did you endeavor to look at your files to see if you could find any client that you represented for Clay Bertrand?
A. The best I can recall, when I got out the hospital, the files were riffled [sic].
Q. What do you mean they were riffled?
A. Somebody went into the catch-all file and the little place where we have notes, and everything else was snatched -- somebody . . .
Q. Your mean your files were stolen before you got out of the hospital? Is that correct?
A. I don't know whether they were stolen, but they were riffled, and whether or not I had anything in there concerning Clay Shaw or Clay Bertrand, I don't recall. I have the IBM system -- and have a little catch-all place -- I make some notes and put it [sic] in there. When other people are going to be represented by the office, we open up a working file.
Q. Was Prentiss Davis in your office the same day you received a call?
A. I think he came in shortly after, probably while I received the call, right around that time.
Q. Did you mention Clay Bertrand to him at that time?
A. All I told him, we were going to Dallas to defend Oswald.
Q. You didn't tell him it was Clay Bertrand?
A. Man, I'm the boss -- I don't tell my flunkeys all my business. I pay 'em, and they do what I tell them to do or they hit the road. I have no confidant [sic] with all my people. I run my office; the tail don't wag the dog.
Q. I'm not asking you why, I am merely asking you . . .
A. The answer is no. To the best of my knowledge, I don't recall telling him Clay Bertrand called me; all I recall telling him was that we were going to Dallas and [sic] defend Oswald.
Q. Did you call your secretary and ask for a file?
A. I said so one place, Eva tells me no, all I told her was we were going to Dallas to defend Oswald. But I did call her.
Q. What file did you ask her to bring?
A. I asked her if we had a file on Oswald, I thought. She says I never asked her that, that all I told her was that we were going to Dallas to defend Oswald. She doesn't know anything about the file or me asking her about a file. But I think I told somebody that that's what I asked her.
Q. Gentlemen, if you have any questions, I think it now would be appropriate to ask.
BY A JUROR:
With respect to your association with Mr. Bertrand as a guarantor for these fees, would you explain how you would know that he could financially guarantee these fees?
A. I didn't know, but you all don't understand the fag world, because you all haven't done any business with them. Usually, at the joints where these kids hang out, somebody will speak for them, and I had no idea that he would or would not, 'cause I never had any problem collecting any money.
Q. Well, there has to be a first time for everything -- you don't know me, and if I were to call you -- and just a voice on the phone -- and say I would guarantee the fee for X, for you to defend him, you would do that, and you don't know anything about me? You don't know if I have a dollar or five dollars?
A. You all don't know how I run my office. I run my office country style. Money don't [sic] move me; if I like the case and I like what's in the office, I do the work. If I get paid, if I don't get paid, that's all right, too.
Q. You were willing to go to Dallas -- and in that case that wasn't a little expense; that would have been a big expense . . .
A. Man, I would have made nothing but money on that case. I could have wrote [sic] four or five books . . .
Q. You were going on the basis of a phone call, that he would guarantee the fee.
A. A telephone call never guaranteed a fee; that's an assumption on somebody's part. I never said that.
Q. You said this man called you and wanted you to represent Oswald?
A. Yes, but he never said anything about guaranteeing a fee.
Q. You mean you would go . . .
A. On a case like that -- you better believe it -- I would go for nothing -- I would become famous.
BY MR. BURNES:
Mr. Andrews, didn't you tell us in our office that he said, don't worry about a fee?
A. I don't recall, Dick. You people got me at a disadvantage. You don't know how I work in my office. You don't know how I handle my books, and if you ask anybody in town, I'm the easiest mark in the world -- if you need help, I go help. I can bring you a [sic] thousands and thousands of people -- I got a case going to the Supreme Court now, out of my pocket -- I been [sic] handling it two and a half years out of my pocket. There's more action for churches I been [sic] handling than Carter's got pills -- I need money like anybody else; it's just the way my particular office runs. These people pay -- they usually do.
Q. Mr. Andrews, you made a reference somewhere -- perhaps in the Warren Report -- that at that time this man owed you money, and at that time you seemed to think money was important.
A. No, that is the conclusion you draw.
Q. That is not a conclusion -- that is what you said.
A. Well, exactly where is it at in there? I don't think I said it exactly.
Q. You said if you ever found him, you would hit him with a chain.
A. Sure, I like to collect my money. If Mr. LaBiche would look in his file, I owed him $17.00 when it was LaBiche & Graff -- when I got out of the service, I walked right straight up there and paid the line -- it took them two hours to find the account, and they like to fell through the floor -- because you all were the first ones that gave me credit and never asked me doodley-boo [sic] -- never asked me nothing [sic] -- LaBiche & Graff -- I'll never forget that if I live to be fifty million years old. I pay my bills, and I run my office a funny way -- maybe you all don't understand how I run the office, but that's the way I run it. Sure, I'd beat him with a chain . . .
BY A JUROR:
You say you are a Veteran?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What do you mean by (inaudible)?
A. When you are in the Navy and get an honorable discharge, they have a picture of a battleship on it.
Q. Mr. Andrews, going back to financial arrangements, that you had with Bertrand, how did you receive monies that he would guarantee? Do you have any way of knowing how much you received?
A. No . . .
Q. You say you keep books?
A. I don't keep books like that. My office is a one-man office.
Q. Did he send you checks or money?
A. On one of these statements, I think I told them I had received two checks from him. You see, you all are asking me something like it happened yesterday . . .
Q. Did Bertrand sign the checks?
A. Yes. As I recall, but I don't know if that's true or not; this thing happened years ago. And I handle all kinds of transactions. I have a simple set of books that the Government approves of, and I religiously keep them. Best I can.
Q. Most of this money you received from him was in checks?
A. No, I received very little from him. The money I received came from the people themselves. And I am sure that on one or two occasions, but again, you all are asking me to pinpoint something that, at the time it took place, was an ordinary routine among all the business I handle. And I had no more occasion to place any importance to it than anything else -- now, there are some files in my office that you ask me about, and I tell you just like that, because I had occasion, because of the importance, to remember them. These are little isolated instances that come in there -- they are not important to the office at all. The only importance of it is that six months or whatever time it was after, the President got assassinated -- and now everybody expects me to remember Lee Oswald -- hell, no, I didn't remember Lee Oswald.
Q. You said you were looking for Clay Bertrand because he owed you a sum of money?
A. No, it's not as simple as that -- it's not quite a sum of money -- my fees are so small it ain't even funny --
Q. But you stated . . .
A. Well, I'm [sic] overloading my mouth at that time -- I will concede that, but that's an expression that I commonly use -- quite a sum of money, I don't believe that -- when you go parole, at that time, an attorney had the power to sign at the Municipal Court a little bond -- the judge gets on it, the guy jumped, takes you off the parole list, well, you need paroles to, at that time, to work, so you go in and you cop the guy out or you plead him in absentia, which you are authorized to do, and if you catch him, you say, man, you blew my bond, give me my yard and a half, you gotta [sic] make up in one way what you lose giving out to people in another way.
Q. You seem to be pretty well acquainted with these fags -- and they seem to be pretty well acquainted with Bertrand . . .
A. About ten or twelve of them.
Q. And you were looking for Bertrand -- did you contact any of these other fags or . . .
A. I assume I did -- I really don't recall. I remember I combed the Quarter.
Q. Would they have known where to contact Bertrand, since he was guaranteeing them?
A. I never found anybody he guaranteed a fee for. I've gone down on my own and searched the indexes in the First Municipal Court to see if I could associate names in the indexes, so I could refresh my memory -- at the time this took place, this was a simple thing to me -- nothing of any importance at all -- believe it's not important to go down to the First Municipal Court and/or the Second, Third or Fourth -- you sit down and you [sic] the guy to bring the affidavit up first, you enter a plea in defense of -- it's very small in the practice of law.
Q. Who recommended Oswald to you?
A. Nobody that I know of.
Q. Or did he ust come in the office one day?
A. I don't know -- nobody that I know of -- everybody in town knows that I rank pretty high in International Law and entry and departure in the US -- I don't know who recommended him. You can ask any lawyer in town who is the greatest in that, and they will tell you me.
Q. Mr. Andrews, on the matter of your files being riffled -- did this happen after you came out of the hospital?
A. No, while I was in there -- when I come [sic] out, the first thing, see the FBI had a lot of pressure on me -- they had 44 men in the city expressly looking for Clay Bertrand -- either 32 or 44 -- squeezing me -- one came up and said, where is he? I said, Regis, you write anything you want -- I had an executive decision to make -- if I said so, they left [sic] the men in the field -- I didn't know, and I said, Regis, write anything you want -- you can write them [sic] crazy, you can write them [sic] dreamed up, do anything you want, close this file, and send the men to something more productive -- 'cause I couldn't give them the answer they were looking for, but I wasn't stupid enough to keep 44 men, or whatever amount they had, in the field, on something I couldn't do -- they spent all the time they had allotted to it, and those men could be turned loose to go elsewhere. So I told him . . .
Q. I was asking about your files being riffled in the office --
A. Well, I went in when I got out of the hospital, first thing I do is go in the catch-all file for hand notes, and I remember very plainly the first visit that Oswald made, because I asked Sgt. Davis, who was in the library doing some work, how you go about straightening out a less than honorable discharge -- assuming I made notes -- I know I told the boy I would have to have a serial number and the place where he got his discharge, three or four other things -- I am positive I made some notes -- went through there, and normally I have about this much garbage in ths file, had two pieces of paper, that's all, everything else was gone. I had asked Eva about it, and she said, well, you stupid idiot, you got a desk that if you straighten it out, I can't find nothing, but if you leave it, you know, piled up, I can reach right in and pull the paper up. But if she straightens my desk out, I'm in trouble.
Q. Mr. Andrews, I understood you to say earlier that you would like to find Clay Bertrand?
A. Well, I think everybody would like to find him -- the emphasis placed on him, he apparently has some connection with . . . that I don't associate at all with this case.
Q. If you would like to find him, how would you know it was Clay Bertrand when you found him?
A. Well, you've got me -- I couldn't say yes, I couldn't -- I'd have to go on instinct.
Q. Yet, when you went looking for Clay Bertrand in the bar, and this man jumped up and ran out, you said that this was Clay Bertrand?
A. No, I said a man who I thought was Clay Bertrand, who appeared to be Clay Bertrand -- I forget the word choice that I used -- got up and nran, stepped out the side door and left the scene.
Q. So you mean to say that if you walked into Clay Bertrand right now, you wouldn't know him?
A. Instinct only. I'd really be as baffled as I am now. He is like the Holy Grail to me, you know, you can see it and you can never get it. The picture I get from looking at you -- I guess in three or four days, I could describe you -- it's that kind of problem. The interest and emphasis placed on Clay Bertrand, I have never associated with the man. In other words, the emphasis placed today and at the time I met this man, the first time I saw him, the second time I saw him, and the transactions I have had with him -- I never placed any particular emphasis on him.
Q. When you told the Warren Commission there were three people you wanted to find, and he was one of them, did you think at that time that if you found him, you could have recognized him at that time?
A. I would have to say you are right, I would doubt if I could, but I would have tried. Because it was my impression from Regis that they felt that this man played an important part in its value or perspective in the overall investigation of Oswald, but he never guaranteed nothing for Oswald. Nobody ever asked me that -- he had nothing to do with Oswald, as far as I know.
Q. Did Clay Bertrand, the voice on the phone, guarantee payment for anyone after the time of the assassination?
A. I ain't never seen nor heard from him since.
Q. Have any of the fags who came to you, for whom he guaranteed payment to you, come to you since that time?
A. Never thought of that, never thought of that. I would say since I've been in the DA's Office, negative, because I would have to tell them no. And between '63 and '64, I doubt, they could have, but I doubt it.
Q. If one of them had, you probably would have asked where, where could I find Clay Bertrand?
A. I wouldn't know, because I didn't pay any particular attention to these people -- if they can make their financial arrangements, I don't worry about them. You propounded a good question -- I have never thought of that. I'll go back and try to do some skull work on it -- I never thought of that -- that is a very good question. Nobody thought to ask me that. That's the best I have heard.
Q. Mr. Andrews, could you describe the color of my hair and my eyes, my weight?
A. If I told you, I'd say you got green hair and green eyes. And a ruddy face.
Q. What color is the neck tie?
A. I would say orange, I ain't too sure. Real dark orange, and got [sic] black spots in it.
Q. Would you state positively that Clay Shaw and Clay Bertrand, having [sic] Clay Shaw recently, were not the same people?
A. I could not do it -- my personal opinion, if you are interested in, I'll give it to you.
Q. All right, we are interested in your personal opinion.
A. I can't connect the two -- I can't say he is, and I can't say he ain't -- there is no way in my mind that I can connect the two -- but if you ask me under oath, I can't give you my personal opinion -- I just have to say there is no way in the world I can connect the two. The only difference -- I would have to go along with Dick and Moo Moo -- 'cause I found out there is a difference -- you know, on the phone -- there is a ten-second delay at a frequency or something in the transmission of the voices.
BY MR. BURNES:
There is a difference in TV and the telephone.
A. How you all found out I'll never know, but I asked a friend of mine, who handles phoenetics [sic] at Southern Bell, and he says there is a very strong possibility there could be a difference.
BY MR. BURNES:
Q. Mr. Andrews, they quoted you some time ago in the paper, sometime after our investigation, that we didn't ask you to submit to a polygraph test and we didn't ask you . . .
A. Man, you ought to see how them [sic] guys do, Dick. They jump on you like the plague, they ain't got no manners, they ain't got no nothing, they sit on a little wire recorder tape [sic] -- Monk got the letter that you wrote to him, Monk calls me over to the office, I reads [sic] the letter, I don't see any necessity for taking any of them [sic] tests; now, you all can take it any way you want, but there ain't no more necessity -- first place, I am allergic to sodium Pentothal, second place, I ain't interested in being hypnotized by nobody [sic] -- I might pop out and overload my mouth again, and the old lady find out [sic] I was chasing somebody up the street -- I ain't interested in all that; I do the best I can live [sic], I ain't trusting nothing else [sic] to no doctor -- if you got to operate on me to save my life, in God I trust. But I might overload my mouth and put on one of my misdemeanors and felonies and ho, ho, ho.
Q. The question I was asking you is did . . .
A. Now, let me tell you what happened -- you all don't understand the humbug; not only do I lose my bread -- I ain't getting paid now. People, half of you, think I killed this guy. All through the West Coast I am the mystery man that can hold the key to solve the Kennedy assassination. It's just unfortunate that it turned that way. The people bug my house, my wife is six months pregnant, she is about to have a miscarriage. They have no mercy. They call your house in the morning, night, follow the kids to school, ask them questions, there's been nothing but a pain in the ear to me.
Q. They did misquote you, is that correct?
A. No, I told them that I didn't know anything about it -- made the Picayune pull it off the front page, because what they had in banner headlines is DA ASKS DEAN ANDREWS TO TAKE LIE DETECTOR TEST. The District Attorney never asked me that. You, as his Assistant, did -- then when I read the paragraph, it got [sic] four ot five little skimpy lines, and everything else is about something else. A great big misnomer. So I provoked it deliberately. I [sic] like to find out who leaked the letter. That's what I really wanted to find out. How did it leak out. Because I ain't told nobody [sic].
Q. The question I asked you is, was Monk Zelden speaking for you when he said no?
A. Wait, now -- Monk had talked to me, and the answer was no -- is that what you mean?
Q. That's what I want to know.
A. I did that for my own protection. My wife comes home from the place, she had gone out to the House of Lee, bought some fried chicken fried rice and something I can't even say that I like to eat -- poor Dottie Lou came in there hysterical -- she is boohooing and crying, and she is at that point of pregnancy where she is really upset and everything else, and I look at it and it's the first time I saw it -- big banner headlines -- they had to call the doctor and get her taken care of -- and I got ticked off, the phone starts ringing, can I curse, I tell you what I told them [sic] guys -- call them a crook, a sackful of everything, a g. d. [sic] lie blump, blump, blump . . . then I called the Chief Counsel for the Picayune and told them I didn't do it -- I guess you call that a lie, but they had to pull the while front page off. And somehow or other, some old snitch leaked the letter -- I don't know who did it -- had the letter in my back pocket -- Monk gave me the letter, Monk told me that you all called on a Friday, I think it was. He called me when I was in between trying cases at First Parish Court -- I had to protect myself and my family -- all these people are interested in is selling newspapers -- they don't care about how they step on you and squash you and make you -- misinterpret you. They couldn't care less -- they aren't interested in printing the truth; they are only interested in printing every piece of crap they can get.
BY A JUROR:
You said you were contacted in the hospital in regard to Oswald -- defending his case in Texas -- said you could not defend him . . .
A. I was sick.
Q. And you contacted Mr. Zelden?
A. The next day, I think, I think it was a Friday.
Q. He said no.
A. No, said, call me back, I don't . . . I called him back the same day and we were talking . . .
Q. When you went back to your office, you told your secretary . . . you were going to Texas . . .
A. No, no -- right after I got the phone call, I called Eva Springer -- I remember that much -- exactly what I told her I don't recall, but immediately after that . . .
Q. Did you have any further contact with Clay Bertrand?
A. No, sir.
Q. In connection with going to Texas?
A. No, sir.
Q. Mr. Andrews, in order to refresh your memory, would it be possible that when you called Mr. Zelden to represent you that he could have told you that Oswald had already been killed?
A. No, not the first time. I second time [sic] I remember distinctly because Monk and I go down to the Club, we sit at the same table each Sunday, his kid and mine are about the same age, Monk plays handball and I take a Turkish bath, get a rubdown, enjoy life like King Farouk, you know. We come out to the bar, Danny Miller, me, the roof man, Monk, we have a little clique, you know -- try to stick each other with the coffee check -- I remember Monk gets a phone call -- and whether he called me back or came back, I don't recall, but he said, don't worry about it, the guy's dead. The guy's been shot. That was the end of the case. I called John Rice the next morning and Regis Kennedy, and the only thing I did then was take an investigation that would probably have got here about ten or twelve days later, and when I called them, they said, so what. Oh, man, in half an hour they were on the phone telling me all [sic]. And then here they come like a thundering herd of locusts. Asking me precise questions which I couldn't give them [sic].
Q. These fags, some of whom were referred to [sic] by Bertrand . . .
A. No, Bertrand never referred fag one.
Q. Well, for whom Bertrand may have guaranteed payment?
A. Right.
Q. If you had gone to court with any of these people, would you then have set up a working file on them?
A. No, you shoot those off the cuff. Those are little bitty cases -- you don't make no memorandum like you do when you come back of town -- back of town like when you come from these DAs, you got to come loaded for (inaudible) because they know their business, but little bitty court like that, it's usually disturbing the peace, bond, appearing in public drunk, it's informal down there -- there is no necessity in fact [sic].
Q. But you would have to have some record -- you might have some record of people you represented before and after the assassination?
A. Let me tell you what I have started to do. I have gone down and started to take the indexes and records, and they are all in a number, sometimes you sign a record, sometimes you don't. I even thought of doing that. I could pinpoint it particularly since Moo Moo told me that they had gone to the trouble to check, and the best they could find was a vice raid for prostitution. Eh, Dick? So I figure I could be of some assistance, when I get the time, I go down and ask for these records, some are there and some are not, and I have started to go through, and maybe I could come up with something, I don't know.
Q. but out of your own files, there would be no record?
A. Unfortunately, there is none. Because those cases aren't worth setting up the files.
Q. How do you record payments -- in a name, or do you list . . .
A. No, the way Miss Springer had it set up, and after she was gone, if it was cash (inaudible) . . . I wouldn't, you know, tell of - - - - - [sic] it was the only way I had to beat the rap, you know -- it wouldn't be too good, because normally, the biggest fee I ever got down there was about $20.00 -- one time I caught a live one -- with a $25.00 bond, so I got hip real quick and charged him $25.00 and collected -- the fees are not big down there. And most of them were cash.
Q. Any more questions, gentlemen?
A. I think I told Jimmy Alcock I would get him some names in the old society pages that you ought to check out. And that is as close as I can come to helping you -- I just wish I could do better for you -- this is an important question, and unfortunately, one I can't do too much good on. Thank you, gentlemen.