(Whereupon, the Jury returned to the box.)
THE COURT: There is no ruling required. We merely excuse the Jury to hear oral argument. You may proceed.
MR. ALCOCK: Perhaps the best procedure would be to have the stenographer read the question back and have the Court rule on it.
THE COURT: All right.
(Whereupon, the pending question was read back by the Reporter.)
THE COURT: I sustain the witness's objection to being forced to give an answer to that question, under the reasons cited outside of the presence of the Jury. Suffice it to say it involves Case No. 200053. For that reason, under the legal ground of self-incrimination, I will sustain the witness's objection to answering the question.
BY MR. ALCOCK:
Q: Now, Mr. Andrews, prior to that telephone conversation had you seen a party whom
you may or may not know, named Clay Bertrand, had you seen a party named Clay Bertrand prior to that telephone conversation?
THE WITNESS: Read it back to me, please.
(Whereupon, the pending question was read back by the Reporter.)
THE WITNESS: If he will rephrase this question, Your Honor, I think I could answer it; I can't answer it in the shape that it is in.
THE COURT: All right. Let's see. Mr. Alcock, so that we can proceed will you rephrase it.
MR. ALCOCK: I will rephrase it.
BY MR. ALCOCK:
Q: Do you know a person named Clay Bertrand?
A: I know a person who back in the early Fifties was introduced to me as Clay Bertrand.
Q: And what was the occasion of this introduction?
A: I walked into the LeRendezvous Bar. It was in the afternoon, I don't recall the date, and they had a wedding reception going on in the dance part in the rear.
Q: Do you recall by whom you were introduced to Clay Bertrand?
A: Big Jo introduced -- wait a minute.
(Conference between the witness and his Counsel.)
A: I respectfully decline to answer that question on the grounds that the answer thereto may, might, would or could tend to link me up to a chain of circumstances that would ultimately incriminate me.
MR. ALCOCK: Your Honor, I respectfully submit that the witness has already said positively, or made a statement to the effect that the Defendant was not Clay Bertrand. We therefore must assume that he knows who this individual is, and this is merely asking him who introduced him to Clay Bertrand.
THE COURT: I believe he answered your question. He decided to claim his privilege, unless I am mistaken.
BY MR. ALCOCK:
Q: Big Jo? Who is Big Jo?
A: She is a butcher I knew down in the --
THE COURT: Speak a little louder and distinctly. Now, she is what, a she or a he?
THE WITNESS: A she.
THE COURT: I can't understand you.
A: A she.
THE COURT: All right. Big Joe is a she?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: A female?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. ALCOCK:
Q: How long had you known Big Jo?
A: Six or seven months, I don't remember.
Q: And what was the occasion for you going to this particular party or wedding reception?
A: I just walked into it, I had no knowledge that it was taking place, I just feel into the place.
Q: What is Big Jo's real name?
A: Helen Girts [sic].
Q: Girts? [sic]
A: Yes, sir.
Q: G-i-r-t?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: When was the last time you saw Helen Girt?
A: I don't recall, sometime in the -- probably the late Fifties. I had defended her on a possession of narcotics charge. She was found guilty, I believe sentenced to five years at Angola, and when she came back in town that is the last time I saw her.
Q: Do you know where she is now?
A: No, sir.
Q: You haven't seen her since the late Fifties?
A: That is the last time I recall. I was called from the First District, she was charged with bribery.
THE COURT: What? Bribery?
THE WITNESS: Public bribery, yes, sir. That is the last I have seen of her.
BY MR. ALCOCK:
Q: And when approximately was that?
A: I don't know. I guess the case is still open, it has never been tried.
Q: Was she charged under the name of Helen Girt?
A: I don't recall, but I would assume that she was.
Q: Now, did you have occasion with this person you say you were introduced to as Clay Bertrand, to have a conversation with him during the course of this wedding reception?
A: (Conference between witness and his Counsel.)
MR. BARRY: Read the question back.
(Whereupon, the pending question was read back by the Reporter.)
A: Yes.
BY MR. ALCOCK:
Q: Approximately how long did you talk to him?
A: He denied being Clay Bertrand?
Q: At that time?
A: Right. I knew who he was.
Q: You knew who he was?
A: Right. So do you.
Q: I know who he is? Would you mind telling me who he is, Mr. Andrews?
A: The information has his name.
Q: Well, but the Information isn't in the record.
A: The Judge read it in the record.
THE COURT: I can't offer exhibits, it is up to either the State or the Defense to offer exhibits, I can't offer them.
BY MR. ALCOCK:
Q: Will you give us the name, Mr. Andrews?
(Conference between witness and his Counsel.)
A: I refuse and respectfully decline to answer that question for the reason that it may, might, could or would tend to link me up with a chain of circumstances that ultimately may incriminate me.
MR. ALCOCK: Now, Your Honor, I submit when the witness suggests that I know, that it is in the Bill of Information that the Court has read out of the presence of the Jury, I submit he has waived his right to claim the Fifth Amendment on that point.
THE COURT: I disagree with you. I sustain the objection.
BY MR. ALCOCK:
Q: Had you known this individual prior to going to the wedding reception?
A: Yes.
Q: Had you seen him on many occasions prior to going to the wedding reception?
A: No, not many.
Q: Had you seen him often after this wedding reception?
A: Yes.
Q: Would you say you saw him regularly after this wedding reception?
A: Well, not regularly, but we would bump into each other, and I handled some legal matters for him.
Q: To your knowledge, did he ever call you and ask you to represent anyone after the wedding reception?
A: He would refer clients to the office.
Q: Then I take it when you were introduced by Agent Kennedy in the hospital, you knew who you were talking about allegedly when you told them the name Clay Bertrand? Is that correct?
A: I would have to look at Mr. Kennedy's notes. That has been my problem ever since, I have never had the notes made available to me, because I don't recall, however, my conversation or Agent Kennedy's conversation.
Q: You do recall that on direct examination you told Mr. Dymond that the name of Clay Bertrand came up during the conversation with Agent Kennedy, is that not correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Did the name of the person that you know Clay Bertrand to be come up during the course of that conversation?
A: You want to know how the name Clay Bertrand came up during the conversation?
Q: Yes.
A: This is my best recollection: At the time Regis Kennedy was making his examination, it suddenly dawned on me that if I revealed the real name I would bring a lot of heat and a lot of trouble to somebody that it didn't belong to. Now this is my recollection, best as I can. I fumbled around for a cover name, and I happened to remember being introduced to this boy, party by the name Clay Bertrand, and used the name Clay Bertrand to associate in my mind with the real party that called. That is the best I can recall.
Q: In other words, you lied to the FBI?
A: No, sir.
Q: You didn't?v A: You may think I did. I used it as a cover name just as if this man here was the unnamed person and all of a sudden it dawns on you that this matter is deeper than it is. Rather than not use this man's name (sic), I used a cover name. I don't recall telling Regis Kennedy any lies.
Q: You just gave him a wrong name?
A: I gave him a cover name.
THE COURT: Well, let's get down to spelling the English language right: When you gave a cover name, did you give the right name of did you not give the right name?
THE WITNESS: I concealed the right name and gave a cover name.
THE COURT: All right. We will let it go at that.
Q: Now, did you know that the FBI was looking for this Clay Bertrand?
A: I vaguely recall Mr. Kennedy coming into the hospital and telling me about a bunch of men that were in the field, and it was my decision whether they should stay in the field or come out of the field. I don't recall whether I told him, but it was to this effect: I can't help you, pull them up and them some place else. So in that way I would have to answer yes.
Q: Did you at that time volunteer the true name of the man that called you?
A: Nobody asked me.
THE COURT: His question to you is did you volunteer. That doesn't mean somebody has to ask you. Did you volunteer without being asked? That was the question.
THE WITNESS: No, no.
BY MR. ALCOCK:
Q: Do you recall how many interviews you had with the FBI after this phone call?
A: No, sir I don't.
Q: Was it as a result of this phone call that you called Mr. Zelden?
A: What phone call, sir?
Q: The phone call you got from Clay Bertrand in the hospital.
A: I have never received a phone call from Clay Bertrand in the hospital.
Q: Well, the individual that you say is Clay Bertrand.
A: When did I say this man was Clay Bertrand? I don't recall that.
Q: Well, you testified before the Warren Commission didn't you?
A: Yes.
Q: Under oath, wasn't it?
A: Yes.
Q: Didn't you tell them that the man that called you on behalf of Lee Oswald was Clay Bertrand?
A: I don't recall. If you have a copy of my testimony, I would like to refresh my memory and read it. Possibly it could refresh my memory.
Q: Are you telling the Court now you don't recall telling the Warren Commission this?
A: Yes. I am not Houdini; this has been years ago, practically five years ago.
MR. DYMOND: If the Court please, if this witness is going to be cross-examined on a statement that he purportedly made to the Warren Commission, I submit in fairness, the statement should be submitted to him.
THE COURT: That is correct. If you have it available, you should submit it to the witness to refresh his memory.
MR. ALCOCK: I am looking for it now, Your Honor. Your Honor, this testimony of Mr. Andrews before the Warren Commission is somewhat lengthy. Perhaps I might suggest to the Court that we allow Mr. Andrews to read it in its entirety and have the Jury go to lunch now, because it is somewhat lengthy and I intend to cross-examine him at length from this interview.
THE COURT: How many pages is the testimony?
MR. ALCOCK: There are 15 pages, Your Honor, However, the printing is quite small.
THE COURT: I understand you wish to minutely cross-examine --
MR. ALCOCK: That is correct, Your Honor.
THE COURT: -- the witness on a previous alleged contradictory statement, and in order to be fair with the witness you would like to give him a chance to read his testimony to refresh his memory?
MR. ALCOCK: That is right.
THE COURT: Well, I think the legal proposition is that he should be permitted to read it, and then you may use it in your cross-examination.
Gentlemen of the Jury, it is about 19, almost 18, minutes to 12:00 but I am going to recess to the regular time, just a difference of about 15 minutes. I will ask the Sheriffs to have you back here for 1:30.
Now, again, I must under the law each time you leave the courtroom, admonish you and instruct you, do not discuss the case amongst yourselves or with any other person until it is finally given to you for your verdict and decision.
Mr. Alcock, I would suggest that you let me have this testimony, and I will give it to Mr. Andrews and Mr. Barry and ask them to return it back to me at 1:30.
MR. ALCOCK: It is the only copy I have.
THE COURT: It is the only copy you have?
MR. ALCOCK: We have on more, but the other one is even more marked up than this one (handing document to the Court).
THE COURT: Be sure you don't lose this. I would like to turn it over to you, Mr. Barry, as attorney for Mr. Andrews. I expect you both back at about 1:28 to take the stand. I must caution the witness that he can discuss anything he wishes with his attorney but he cannot discuss his testimony with witnesses who have already testified or who have not testified, but he certainly can discuss it with his attorney. All right. Mr. Andrews, you are relieved as a witness until 1:30. Mr. Shaw, you are released under you same bond, and this Court will stand recessed for lunch until 1:30.
. . . . Thereupon, at 11:47 o'clock a.m., a recess was taken until 1:30 o'clock p.m. . . . .